What if you could make your own "What If?"

Conan is the epitome of what a human can achieve in Hyborian age, or however that is spelled. just as Cap is the epitome of what a human can achieve in this age.

Conan has withstood as much as cap has, fought as hard as cap has, demonstrated unbelievable strength as cap has, fought as well as cap has. Nightmask is right, they're evenly matched. The only thing Cap has going for him the Conan doesn't is the shield, and it's not like Conan's era is lacking magical swords to even be the equal of the shield.

This is a fight that lasts 3 days and they probably end up in a draw as they'll both need sleep and water at some point.

capocastillo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Conan is the epitome of what a human can achieve
> in Hyborian age, or however that is spelled. just
> as Cap is the epitome of what a human can achieve
> in this age.
>
> Conan has withstood as much as cap has, fought as
> hard as cap has, demonstrated unbelievable
> strength as cap has, fought as well as cap has.
> Nightmask is right, they're evenly matched. The
> only thing Cap has going for him the Conan doesn't
> is the shield, and it's not like Conan's era is
> lacking magical swords to even be the equal of the
> shield.
>
> This is a fight that lasts 3 days and they
> probably end up in a draw as they'll both need
> sleep and water at some point.


Well, with much credit to what you have written and Conan's achievements I still would not say it is even. Close, but not even. And with a magic sword Conan may stand a chance more so than without one. Yet, even after three days Cap would be better for wear than Conan and maybe then he gets the decisive win! It's the serum folks, the serum! And I seriously doubt Conan would defeat or even last against some of Caps foes, but I'll admit it is cause of his era. Had he been born in the modern era and still developed physically as he has, then I would grant you both an even match. Or a closer one than I am willing to concede at this point. Chalk it up to agreeing to disagree! It's no disrespect to either you or Nightmask!

____________________________________________


"POWER.... WITHOUT "perception" is virtually USELESS.... and therefore of NO.... "true" VALUE"

Capo's right that Conan is the Captain America of his age. Both of their creators have written them up at the pinnacle of what a human can be, larger than life heroes braving the worst of dangers of their era, and considering Conan has almost routinely battled archmages and even demons and gods I'd have to say that yes Conan has battled threats equal to those of Captain America. Conan is as clever and intelligent as Captain America, and if he'd had access to the education of today would have met the challenge without difficulty. Many also forget that Conan's well educated and can read, write, and speak a variety of languages, an almost unheard of thing for anyone not a mage or scholar. About the only language he didn't speak was Stygian and I think that was intentional on his part not because he couldn't learn it.

As far as Super-Patriot goes Conan would have won because unlike Cap Conan would have been fighting to kill, not just disable. Unless he's fighting someone he thinks is an innocent under the control of another he goes for crippling or killing an opponent to end the fight.

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The serum doesn't make Cap invincible though, and while he doesn't develop fatique poisons he CAN'T fight non-stop for days on end, because without proper nourishment and rest his body would eventually begin to wear down and his reaction time and strength would suffer. The serum doesn't grant him instant regeneration and perfect tissue recovery, only heightened endurance and peak recovery for a human, and no need to fear fatigue poisons.

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Nightmask Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Capo's right that Conan is the Captain America of
> his age. Both of their creators have written them
> up at the pinnacle of what a human can be, larger
> than life heroes braving the worst of dangers of
> their era, and considering Conan has almost
> routinely battled archmages and even demons and
> gods I'd have to say that yes Conan has battled
> threats equal to those of Captain America. Conan
> is as clever and intelligent as Captain America,
> and if he'd had access to the education of today
> would have met the challenge without difficulty.
> Many also forget that Conan's well educated and
> can read, write, and speak a variety of languages,
> an almost unheard of thing for anyone not a mage
> or scholar. About the only language he didn't
> speak was Stygian and I think that was intentional
> on his part not because he couldn't learn it.
>
> As far as Super-Patriot goes Conan would have won
> because unlike Cap Conan would have been fighting
> to kill, not just disable. Unless he's fighting
> someone he thinks is an innocent under the control
> of another he goes for crippling or killing an
> opponent to end the fight.


Well, bravo for bringing out the big guns! I've already seen them, as I said he is educated and I do not pretend to be unfamiliar with his abilities or achievements. I just disagree to the degree to which I think they measure up to Cap's. And though the serum may not give Cap extraordinary superhuman abilities, I won't believe that a mere human can match one enhanced by the Super Soldier Serum, especially Cap and not even Conan!

And I disagree that Conan would beat Super Patriot ever, since he is in the ten ton strength range and was easily crushing cars in his fight with Cap! Conan would have to be wielding something stronger than steel to cripple him!

____________________________________________


"POWER.... WITHOUT "perception" is virtually USELESS.... and therefore of NO.... "true" VALUE"

It's like the idea that Batman could beat the Hulk or do anything to the Hulk without some type of weapon, or that Batman could beat Cap in a hand to hand fight.

These heroes have their strengths, but they are not equal when placed side by side! Clearly, in most cases it comes down to perception and often objectivity gives way to subjectivity. But at least in this case it is understandable! You've made good points, but I simply don't agree! Sorry.....:(

____________________________________________


"POWER.... WITHOUT "perception" is virtually USELESS.... and therefore of NO.... "true" VALUE"

Conan's fought and beaten monsters that are in that strength range to be sure. it's not just how well Conan can fight or use a certain weapon, but how they use the environment around them in combat as a wepon in and of itself. Even if Conan might not hurrt SP directly, he could certainly use the elements to his advantage indirectly.

Cap's somewhat superhuman abilities not withstanding, Conan has shown on many occaisions that he's no 'mere mortal' either. Yes Cap does have the super soldier serum, but Conan is from a 'time undreamed of'. And in that time he's shown how not only is he the mightiest in respects to what human beings can do and achieve, but also shown how he can do what no other human could do before or since. Even if Robert E. Howard never wrote up how strong Conan was, or how far he could run, he did write how Conan defeated monsters and wizards, and kings, and demigods that were up to that point undefeatable. And he certainly wrote how Conan was more than human, though maybe not in OHOTMU type terms.

Not saying Cap /can't/ beat Conan, or Conan can't beat Cap. But i don't see this fight being decisive by any stretch.

There's nothing mere about Conan, if anything something like the Super-Soldier formula would have almost no effect on him as he's already peak human and greater than any mere mortal. While the formula optimized Steve Rogers and gave him an edge in developing that peak potential Conan went the old-fashioned route of just being peak human potential naturally. In the end the formula simply let a formerly weak human being become what Conan already is.

I think you're reaching a bit with the idea that Conan would have no hope against Super Patriot/USAgent just because he's able to bench ten tons. By that logic neither would Cap, and Conan's defeated beings more than capable of crushing stone, enchanted steel, and that required dropping mountains on them to stop. Super-strong doesn't make one unbeatable by someone who isn't or clearly Cap wouldn't be the icon for David/Goliath matchups in the super-hero community. Also USAgent being able to bend steel doesn't mean he has any kind of exceptional body resistance or capacity to resist gunfire or worse. He can be hurt by a knife if someone can get past his guard, or shot by a gun.

It seems like you have a feeling that Conan being equal to Cap somehow cheapens or reduces Cap in stature, when nothing of the sort occurs by having them be equals as the champions of their respective eras.

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Cap doesn't stand a chance against the Hulk either without a weapon, and as the Hulk's pointed out at times over the years, particularly when more intelligent, the Shield doesn't do more than annoy him, it certainly doesn't hurt him. At least Batman carries an array of items with him instead of being overly dependent on a single item.

Side-by-Side Conan and Cap are equals, and neither has a clear-cut edge over the other, with whoever would win in a fight coming down to as much circumstances and who luck decided to fair, as they're evenly enough matched they'd otherwise end up pretty much a draw.

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It's ok with me to call it a draw! But that's just for the sake of being fair. But it doesn't mean I withdraw anything I said earlier.8-)

____________________________________________


"POWER.... WITHOUT "perception" is virtually USELESS.... and therefore of NO.... "true" VALUE"

I don't know... I always just saw Conan as a typical D&D Barbarian. I've not read the novels but I've seen the movies. Conan's bulk would work against him imho, making him less agile than Cap. Conan can't be peak in every physical aspect (as Cap is), because as hard as you work at achieving one aspect, others -will- get neglected. That's why no one in real life is physically perfect. Cap is peak human in every physical minute aspect and then some. No one can achieve that naturally. No one. I agree, Cap is physically better rounded than Conan. Conan may be Cap's equal in strength, but as Cap's endurance has superhuman aspects, Conan can't quite equal it, and Conan can't be nearly as dexterous as Cap, due to bulk constraints (Cap is far more compact for his strength).

all I can say is the movies are just a cheap [if not entertaining] reflection of the high mythic crap conan pulls off in Robert Howard's original work.

Punstarr Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I don't know... I always just saw Conan as a
> typical D&D Barbarian. I've not read the novels
> but I've seen the movies. Conan's bulk would work
> against him imho, making him less agile than Cap.
> Conan can't be peak in every physical aspect (as
> Cap is), because as hard as you work at achieving
> one aspect, others -will- get neglected. That's
> why no one in real life is physically perfect.
> Cap is peak human in every physical minute aspect
> and then some. No one can achieve that naturally.
> No one. I agree, Cap is physically better
> rounded than Conan. Conan may be Cap's equal in
> strength, but as Cap's endurance has superhuman
> aspects, Conan can't quite equal it, and Conan
> can't be nearly as dexterous as Cap, due to bulk
> constraints (Cap is far more compact for his
> strength).


Thanks for your input Pun, I agree with you! But I didn't want to push too far. So I can accept a draw, but not a win for Conan.

____________________________________________


"POWER.... WITHOUT "perception" is virtually USELESS.... and therefore of NO.... "true" VALUE"

The movies have nothing on what Conan is from the novels, and they did dumb him down to fit the stereotype of the D&D Barbarian (the animated Conan the Adventurer went so far to not only have him shy and embarrassed around women but illiterate). Conan as he is for the novels is impressively powerful in strength, endurance, and vitality, and often described as agile far beyond what one would think for one of his size and bulk. Of all his stats the only one where he might be less than peak human would be his Agility, and that's debatable. He well understood the value of education and knowledge and learned many things, including training in a variety of combat arts of his age easily as capable and deadly as any taught in the modern era.

It's a huge mistake to dismiss him on such little information as a few movies where they took a number of liberties with his full capabilities. Conan Vs. Cap is a coin toss who would win, not an easy victory for Captain America 'just because he's Cap and got a funky serum in his blood'.

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Ok, but what's the explanation of how exactly Conan -naturally- achieved what only a serum makes possible? It's impossible without some outside force... so what made it possible for Conan? Magic?

Therein lies the main problem. Different universes with wholly different laws of physics and biology.





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/20/2007 11:46PM by Punstarr.

Uh no I think Marvel incorporates the Conan novels/setting as canon history (heck Spider-man's wife has been possessed at least twice by Red Sonja), along with the King Kull novels (Spider-man's time-traveling spirit met him). So same universe and physics, if anything Marvel modern setting physics are the looser ones not Conan's. As far as how he naturally achieved peak physical perfection it's because that's just how he was born and the age he lived in ensured he reached maximum potential.

Considering how you've felt I was being too nitpicky and realistic in my questioning some things at times aren't you being a tad too 'he can't do that it's not natural for a human to do that he has to have some super-serum to achieve that' yourself? How or why he achieved it matters less than the fact he does rate it and the depictions of both men rate them as peak human and the bias against Conan seems to be more along the lines of 'well he's just a barbarian, no way he could ever beat Cap' or 'well magic formula wins every time over natural ability and training'. Objectively the two men are equals or close enough that neither can be considered an easy victor over the other.

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Nightmask has a very valid point. The why's of Conan's skill and ability are far less important than the fact he /can/ do all of the things he's done. Why did this happen? because Conan had a really crazy life. And that's just as valid as polio victim recieving a serum that maxed out his abilities.

Conan's been described as having the agility of a jungle cat, strength that no man has ever possessed, and tireless endurence and fortitude. Sounds like a certain star-spangled avenger. Being hung up on the origin is silly, because all that is is window dressing. Just compare the feats they've accomplished [Cap & Conan] and one sees in a much clearer perspective how equal they are. Just like a typical Barbarian in Conan's day couldn't beat Elder Monsters or Witch Queens, but Conan did, no typical soldier could beat Awesome Androids and iron Men, and yet, surprisingly, Captain America has.

Punstarr Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Ok, but what's the explanation of how exactly
> Conan -naturally- achieved what only a serum makes
> possible? It's impossible without some outside
> force... so what made it possible for Conan?
> Magic?
>
> Therein lies the main problem. Different
> universes with wholly different laws of physics
> and biology.


I don't think it's invalid for Punstarr to ask this question. Regardless of his knowledge or references to the movies, "I" am not similarly informed primarily by that medium regarding Conan and his potential or his abilities. "In fact, I know the books, movies and novels!" Yet, I still see nothing in here that answers his question or mine.

Despite my bias towards Cap I do not see an unbiased consideration of yours regarding Conan. In fact, I am only willing to consider a DRAW, as I said earlier due to direct respect to what I know and all you have said! But a win of Conan's I will concede, can only be one of "circumstance" and not wholly on his skill and abilities. Cap gets the win in my book otherwise!

Again, the "What-if" only happened as it did due to a scenario that placed Cap in a disposition to underestimate Conan! What else need be said!?!

____________________________________________


"POWER.... WITHOUT "perception" is virtually USELESS.... and therefore of NO.... "true" VALUE"

Explain why Cap has the 'skill' to beat conan and not the other way around. I think plenty of examples have been given that Conan has beaten foes just as tough as foes Cap has beaten.

But for the Conan detractors, there aren't any examples offered of why Conan couldn't beat Cap, or any reasoning behind it other than 'Conan couldn't possibly have developed as far as Cap has'. Well what if he could have? What if the literary origins of the character have shown that he has developed just as well as Cap did? What then?

Unfortunately it seems as if it's just about a given when you compare iconic characters of a particular level (In this case humans at the peak of human potential) fan favorite creeps in and they have trouble seeing how there isn't any hands down clear winner if they had to fight for some reason. Same thing happens in comparisons between Batman and Captain America. For Batman we hear 'he has all those mysterious martial arts he learned around the world, all Cap's got is boxing and wrestling and some gymnastics', Cap gets 'he has the Super-Soldier formula and that make him invincible' and Conan fans likely go by 'he's a brawny barbarian archtype and has that connection with primitive instincts that'll let him win over anything'.

Going for the flip-side we've seen all three taken out by regular goons on various occasions, which if you go by the arguments used to say why one would defeat the others they'd never get captured by some flunky but they do. They operate at peak human but that doesn't make them unbeatable by any means. Plus the 'Cap has the SS-Formula' arguments tend to fall flat since other than turning a sickly weak human into peak human and letting him go without tiring longer than most and survive being frozen it doesn't give him any other real advantages. Most fights end long before the ability for those involved to get significantly tired or suffer the penalties of exhaustion to become relevant anyway.

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/21/2007 11:21AM by Nightmask.