Who else could lift Thor's Hammer?

Why would the Hammer be limited by Norse ideals? Norse and Asgardian aren't one and the same. In fact when Mjolnir was made the Norse weren't even around yet. The Norse worshipped the Asgard not the other way around.



DG X(

Marvel > DC

as was shown in the link, Spirit, it was in the big "Amalgam" Universe crossover from a few years back.

And yes, Asgardians were around before Norse. And the Heliopians were around before the Egyptians. But the Egyptian ideals were based off of Heliopian ideals, just as Norse ideals were based off of Asgardian ideals.



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Be Ex/20 to one another!

and, as Universe X showed us, the Asgardians forms and personalities WERE based off of what the Norsemen believed. But, Universe X is a possible future, and thus not really canon.



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Be Ex/20 to one another!

If it's a possible future how would the things revealed in the story's past be irrelevant?
If they are, it's not a possible future.

it's not canon b/c it's not in the mainline comics, none of the "possible future" lines are, b/c the future is not set in stone.

and "irrelevant" and "not true" are two different things.



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Be Ex/20 to one another!

I'm not talking about the future.
Earth X makes references to Marvel's past. Lots of them.
Would that make it a completely alternate time-line as opposed to a possible future?

Yes, the X-line has lots of referneces to Marvel's past, and lots of forgotten characters (like Jude the Entropic Man in the most recent Paradise X). But as I said, the X line isn't part of the main Marvel universe, it's Alex Ross' alternate future version of the Marvel Universe, so he's making up as much as he's quoting/citing (like his take on Wolverine's origin and of the deal Cynthia von Doom made with Mephisto).

Besides, someone wondered just what "worthiness" in the eyes of a Norseman were, so I posted it.



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Be Ex/20 to one another!

That scene in the All-Access/Amalgam cross-over when Wonder Woman handed Thor his own hammer was awesome! I think it was the best single event in the entire arc.

The whole "Asgardians-before-the-Norse" discussion is deceiving. We only have these comic book characters because they were parts of our Earth's actual history. In reality, the Norse did invent the pantheon with Odin, Thor, etc. If you go with the comic book point of view and say the Asgardians came first you've entered into a circular logical proof, which is actually an oxymoron. You just kind of have to let this one go. You can't really separate them from each other. The sequence of events doesn't change the argument much anyway. Whether the Norse were the "parent" or the "child" of this "worthiness" (or "chicken" and "egg" if you will) doesn't matter much. The only difference would be if you posited differences in Asgardian thought which hasn't been matriculated down to Earthlings since the time of the Vikings. Since this would mean you are inventing possibilities instead of citing instances, the entire premise of the argument can be summarily dismissed, almost a priori. :beer: Unless of course they actually did say something uniquely Asgardian, in which case my entire argument goes *poof*.

The "Red Hair Conspiracy" has risen its ugly head again I see! Its a good point but they have already addressed it in the mainline. Its a bit hokey though. Odin's severed eye somehow achieved sentience ;) . Thor met this "eye" and it told him what it "knew" of the Asgardians that lived before the last Ragnarok. It told him a story that was very consistent with our historical stories of the Nordic pantheon. The eye said the previous Thor fought the Midgard Serpent and killed it, only to die later from its poison. This Thor, in the sentient eye's story, did have red hair. Of course, he could be lying. I mean, how far can you trust a giant, talking eye?



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Build a man a fire and he will be warm for a night. Set a man on fire, and he will be warm the rest of his life

it was probably the Eye of Vecna in disguise, anyway... :p



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Be Ex/20 to one another!

Well let's not forget that the Asgard and Norse varied so much they eventually left this plane and refused to be worshipped anymore by them.

>>"If you go with the comic book point of view and say the Asgardians came first you've entered into a circular logical proof, which is actually an oxymoron."<<

What?!? Why would you look at it from any other point of view? As far as Marvel and this game is concerned that is the only explantion that matters. All the other "real life was this, and history says that" is what is irrelevent when discussing Marvel, which is what I beleive this site is for. If we were at a Norse Mythology site I wouldn't bring up what Marvel did so why should it work the other way around? The only thing that matters is what is within the pages of the comics and the rule books. And for the most part even the comics only go so far as what is in the rules and comics sometimes varies greatly.

If some choose to portray them differently I say fine, but when discussing the default rules it is a different matter all together.



DG X(

Marvel > DC

>>What?!? Why would you look at it from any other point of view? As far as Marvel and this game is concerned that is the only explantion that matters. All the other "real life was this, and history says that" is what is irrelevent when discussing Marvel, which is what I beleive this site is for. If we were at a Norse Mythology site I wouldn't bring up what Marvel did so why should it work the other way around? The only thing that matters is what is within the pages of the comics and the rule books. And for the most part even the comics only go so far as what is in the rules and comics sometimes varies greatly.<<



Its utterly relevant, because Marvel comic books and this game are not stand alone entities outside of this here real universe. Marvel didn't invent Thor. He is the Nordic God of Thunder. The comics may say that the Asgardians existed first and the Norse patterned themselves after them, but the only reason Marvel used the Asgardians in the first place was that they wanted to do stories with Thor in them, who was invented by the Norse! You see, it only works one way because the Norse stuff exists without Marvel but the Marvel stuff doesn't exist without the Norse. Regardless of what "comic book canon" says, Marvel's Asgard is the "child" of the actual Nordic Asgard. To say that, in the comics, the Marvel Asgardians came down and fostered the Nordic ideals and lifestyle is, in effect, a "flawed recursion" if you will. Nothing Marvel could ever print can undo the fact that Marvel's Asgardians are based on real life's Asgardians. Even if Marvel turned them into a bunch of techno-pagan Republicans in the comics the real life Norse would still be responsible for their existence.

I choose to look at comics from the point of view that the creators of them do. When I realize that its just a bunch of people, no better than me, sittin' around and making stuff up, I realize how silly it is to argue "facts" and "canon". If you want to only look at it from internal to the comic that's your perrogative. Godspeed. But any logical arguments you try to make are silly and impertinent, because its just a bunch of people, no better than you, sitting around and making it up.



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Build a man a fire and he will be warm for a night. Set a man on fire, and he will be warm the rest of his life

You are so wrong. Marvel REINVENTED Thor, otherwise he would be a red headed, beer guzzling, beserker who worshipps valor in battle above all else. He wouldn't be part of the Avengers, he wouldn't be on Earth and other than his followers he wouldn't give a flying fudge pack what happened to humans.

So according to you everything Marvel has done with Asgardians is irrelevant as it wasn't real? Change it all you want, but make no mistake if you make him anything but what he is shown to be in the comics (same goes for all Marvel norse mythology) you ARE deviating from the norm. No debating it or discussing shades of grey. It is either portrayed as it is shown in comics and rules OR IT IS NOT MARVEL ASGARDIAN MYTHOLOGY. Again deviate away, but don't stand there and fly in the face of almost 40 years of history and tell me what you are saying is canon.

IF IT IS NOT IN AN OFFICIAL COMIC OR RULEBOOK IT IS NOT OFFICIAL?

I repeat, I care not wether people use the official info or make up there own, I think those that stay strictly within the rules are missing out on the best part of playing RPGs. BUT what you choose to play with and what is official are two different things regardless of what did or didn't, would or wouldn't happen when dealing with "real" Norse mythology.



DG X(

Marvel > DC

opps I have a question mark where none was intended.

Kaz,

I must say, insulting me and the writers all in one fell swoop was especially butt muncher of you. What unabashed hubris!! If it's so easy then why are you here arguing rather than being a wirter or artist working on a mag? Oh that's right, you simply choose not. You could but you have this whole middle east thing to work out and then there's the hole in the ozone, not to mention carving that statue of yourself out of the moon. An uberman's work is never done huh?!?

Are they gods that their every word must be taken as law and never questioned? That's almost as stupid as saying you could do it just as well. Frank Miller, what a hack! You couldv'e done the same thing, just as good right?

Those who can do and some who can't simply delude themselves.



DG X(

Marvel > DC

I have no idea how you got the impression you have form what I wrote. I suggest you reread it again and again until you get it. I didn't suggest I'm as good as Frank Miller at what he does. I said that writers are just people writing cool stories. I can't do what they do nor do I try, but that doesn't mean I think they are any better as human beings than me or anyone else.

I am not taking this as heatedly as you apparently are but if you want to throw down here goes:

1.) >>Again deviate away, but don't stand there and fly in the face of almost 40 years of history and tell me what you are saying is canon.<<
Wow. Almost 40 whole years. Marvel casually rewrote an entire culture's religion that existed for centuries because it felt like it. And I have no idea how you construed that I was stating "canon". One of my points was that the very idea of "canon" is stupid! Again, reread what I wrote.

2.) >>So according to you everything Marvel has done with Asgardians is irrelevant as it wasn't real?<<
Umm... no. My point was the Norse invented the Asgardians and that this is a fact that exists regardless of what happens "in book". "Art imitated life" here, not the other way around.

3.) >>Change it all you want, but make no mistake if you make him anything but what he is shown to be in the comics (same goes for all Marvel norse mythology) you ARE deviating from the norm.<<
Umm...no. Marvel deviated from the norm. I'm actually cool with that but it still is what it is. Again, I'm lead to believe that you haven't read my posts in full. This is what I said 2 posts ago: "Unless of course they actually did say something uniquely Asgardian, in which case my entire argument goes *poof*.". I said this because I was making these conjectures in the absence of explicit comic book events. MY WHOLE DAMN POST WAS BASED ON THE PREMISE THAT IT HASN'T BEEN SPELLED OUT FOR US! IF IT HAS THAN I CONCEDED WE SHOULD FOLLOW THAT!

4.) >>I must say, insulting me and the writers all in one fell swoop was especially butt muncher of you. What unabashed hubris!! If it's so easy then why are you here arguing rather than being a wirter or artist working on a mag?<<
"A" you didn't get my point at all if you thought I was being insulting or arrogant. "B" do you even know what I do for a living? No you don't. You don't know a damn thing about me and its rather stupid of you to make any such comment.

5.) >>Oh that's right, you simply choose not. You could but you have this whole middle east thing to work out and then there's the hole in the ozone, not to mention carving that statue of yourself out of the moon. An uberman's work is never done huh?!?<<
I wanted to discuss Thor but you are just being an @!#$ here.

I believe discussing, arguing and weighing things is only wothwhile under certain circumstances. Since comic book "canon" is just the whims and wills of a small group of human beings, that put their pants on one leg at a time just like the rest of us, reacting to their customers and patrons, I do NOT think it is worthwhile to discuss, argue or weigh said "canon". Tomorrow they can decide that "worthy" means being a cannibalistic necrophiliac and if they decide to make that mainline you have to swallow it. Anything that behaves like this is not worth the time and effort to discuss logically like it is a branch of science, and that is precisely what I see a lot of people do, and not just in these here forums. You are trying to deduce the definition of worthiness by referencing and extrapolating instances that were written down in something that is considered mainline, when tomorrow a couple of guys can make the cannibalistic necrophiliac mainline. Whatever. I said that was your perrogative to do so, but you would have had to read my entire post to know that. Thump your thumb on your comic bible and quote me scripture all you want, but it has nothing to do with the point of my posts.



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Build a man a fire and he will be warm for a night. Set a man on fire, and he will be warm the rest of his life

Uh, could everyone just step back and take a deep breath here? The point of this forum is to have fun while discussing interesting topics, not take shots at one another.

>>any logical arguments you try to make are silly and impertinent<<

Yeah that is pretty easy to misunderstand. I see now you were telling me how smart I really am. Silly me.

The only other thing I have to say on the true subject at hand is that once Thor entered the pages of Marvel an alternate Thor was created and what the mythological Thor did and didn't do IS most definately irrelevent when discussing the Marvel Thor. Norse Thor and Marvel Thor are two different fictional characters and to say that beasue one is one way the other must also follow suit is, was and will continue to be the epitome of foolishness and no matter how many paragraphs you spend saying otherwise it won't change a damn thing.

See how easy it is little boy to say what you have to say without nine paragraphs of psuedo-intellectual garbage complete with forward and footnotes. I mean what self indulgent nonesense.



DG X(

Marvel > DC

Well, so much for stepping back and take a deep breath here, I guess...

Don't worry Eypon, this is my last response.


>>any logical arguments you try to make are silly and impertinent<<

Yeah that is pretty easy to misunderstand. I see now you were telling me how smart I really am. Silly me.

I don't equate stupidity to impertinent logic.

>>what the mythological Thor did and didn't do IS most definately irrelevent<<

I see it otherwise.

>>See how easy it is little boy<<

:yawn: You discredit yourself by doing that. Are you that personally offended? Sheesh...

>>no matter how many paragraphs you spend saying otherwise it won't change a damn thing. ...to say what you have to say without nine paragraphs of psuedo-intellectual garbage complete with forward and footnotes. I mean what self indulgent nonesense.<<

I felt I needed to explain further. Your reaction is genuinely confusing to me so I tried to give more detail. Self-indulgent? I don't get my jollies arguing with people in Internet forums...sorry.



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Build a man a fire and he will be warm for a night. Set a man on fire, and he will be warm the rest of his life

Man this is getting ugly! This makes my little disagreements with Warlock look like love taps. Can't we all just get along?!! Anyways, I don't like the worthiness rules for Marvel RPG. It actually seems far too easy to be worthy. While it's difficult to have that much karma and unlikely that someone's gonna have it just lying around it's not extremely difficult. I personally have made it much harder in my game. In order to lift it you got to be worthy in my opinon. Funniest thing is that every player at one time or another has tried. One was EXTREMELY determined to do it some day. Fortunately this player also had the attention span of a grapefruit and some shiny metal came around soon after to distract him. It's amusing when "life goals" are forgotten in three minutes.

I believe that the strength requirement is based off of the whole norse value strength thing. Thor's strong so you must be to. Makes sense when you think about it. A 90lbs weakling lifting Thor, the mighty son of Zeus' hammer would make him the laughing stock of the Asguard. They @#$%& up Colossus, I'm just going to agree to disagree on him. Thing might have a chance. Storm lifted it in my opinon because some writer thought it would be cool for the lightning "goddess" to become a true lightning goddess. Spiderman I actually agree with just as I would agree to Captain America. Anyone worthy of the Karma Power in my opinon.

How'd you guys use italics any ways? Been wanting to do that so I don't have to shout!

Alabar

Damn, Warlock, dude; "little boy"? Good Christ man. Next time use a chain saw... just don't use the Norweigan method of stopping one.

G ;)



If electricity comes from electrons; does that mean that morality comes from morons? G. Carlin