Starting with Class 1000, 3000 and 5000 Powers

ThatArtGuy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I agree with Nightmask on this one. Material
> strength means nothing without the force to push
> it.
>
> TAG

If that were true, Wolverine wouldn't have been able to cut through half the things he's cut through in the comics. I've seen him casually cut portals through heavily reinforced doors. Remember the Weapon X flashbacks?

The insane regeneration was added on to the Hulk since it's the cool thing to give the extra-tough characters not because he always had it. His Monstrous rank protection against Physical attacks was overcome by Wolverine in the past via his berserker rage and targeting his weakest spot, i.e. his throat. That's how he was shown able to kill the Hulk in the What-If?; likely because one can consider the throat area having lesser protection compared to the rest of the body as his hide just can't be as thick there as it can be elsewhere.

"A shared universe, like any fictional construct, hinges on suspension of disbelief. When continuity is tossed away, it tatters the construct. Undermines it."

-- Peter David

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Nightmask Character Sheet

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Paragon Character Sheet

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Complete list of my characters various forum URLs, over 30 to enjoy!

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Godiva Character Sheet

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Seraphim Character Sheet

[www.furaffinity.net] Art by Marvel Comic's artist Rusty Haller!

[www.furaffinity.net] Artist/writer/Creator of The Extinctioners Independent super-hero comic!

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Sappho Character Sheet

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Cornucopia Character Sheet

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Nightmares of Futures Past Ongoing Story

[www.classicmarvel.com] - There is no such thing as too powerful Forum Thread

One of those difficult questions to work out unfortunately. Most of the time though he's shown cutting up stuff that's not extremely thick or in the upper range of material strength. Things like the aformentioned fence aren't a foot thick, although it is stretching it having him cut through several feet of rock or worse metal in a single swipe of his claws. Not that comics don't stretch or forget a character's limits at times, especially high-profile characters like Wolverine. After all during his bone claws period you'd see him slashing objects completely beyond the limits of their material strength, like Galactus, without them breaking.

"A shared universe, like any fictional construct, hinges on suspension of disbelief. When continuity is tossed away, it tatters the construct. Undermines it."

-- Peter David

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Nightmask Character Sheet

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Paragon Character Sheet

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Complete list of my characters various forum URLs, over 30 to enjoy!

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Godiva Character Sheet

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Seraphim Character Sheet

[www.furaffinity.net] Art by Marvel Comic's artist Rusty Haller!

[www.furaffinity.net] Artist/writer/Creator of The Extinctioners Independent super-hero comic!

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Sappho Character Sheet

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Cornucopia Character Sheet

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Nightmares of Futures Past Ongoing Story

[www.classicmarvel.com] - There is no such thing as too powerful Forum Thread

The other thing to remember (that most writers forget) is even though his claws and skeleton are Cl1000, his muscles and tendons pulling them are not. It's a good thing he does have regeneration, otherwise he'd be popping tendons off left and right. That's why the strength for damage makes the most sense to me. You'd almost have to factor his strength, endurance, and regeneration in how he cuts things. Or, more simply, it's one of those things you have to chalk up to comic-book physics.

As for modeling the differences of characters between writers (in this case what Wolverine cuts), the best thing to do is to look at the core, "classic" version of the character. Otherwise, we'd never be able to pin down attributes. Spider-Man defeated Firelord, does that give him cosmic level fighting? I wouldn't think so.

TAG

I do much prefer the classic version of Wolverine, where he was tough, had a reasonable healing factor and resistance to toxins and disease, and made full use of his espionage and military training instead of his just running in going 'Here I am! Call your buddies I don't mind, I'm Masochist Man and don't mind getting shot up constantly even though my regeneration ensures I suffer all the pain of every shot.'. Maybe with the final revelations about his past and restoring all his memories we'll get to see him showing the intelligence he's been lacking of late.

"A shared universe, like any fictional construct, hinges on suspension of disbelief. When continuity is tossed away, it tatters the construct. Undermines it."

-- Peter David

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Nightmask Character Sheet

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Paragon Character Sheet

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Complete list of my characters various forum URLs, over 30 to enjoy!

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Godiva Character Sheet

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Seraphim Character Sheet

[www.furaffinity.net] Art by Marvel Comic's artist Rusty Haller!

[www.furaffinity.net] Artist/writer/Creator of The Extinctioners Independent super-hero comic!

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Sappho Character Sheet

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Cornucopia Character Sheet

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Nightmares of Futures Past Ongoing Story

[www.classicmarvel.com] - There is no such thing as too powerful Forum Thread

Speaking of cutting the mustard, is the sword carried by Nemesis (from the pages of Alpha Flight) capable of dismembering Wolverine?

If the sword's monomolecular, as I believe it's described, then it should potentially be capable of slicing through Wolvie's Adamantium-laced bones...

By the UPB, the power of Two-Dimensionality grants an effective +5cs bonus for determining what materials can be cut through, so Amazing rank Two-Dimensionality would effectively have Shift-Z cutting ability for slicing through things, making that rank able to sever Wolvie's limbs with a Red FEAT (Yellow if you consider the Adamantium lacing to only be of Shift-Z material strength).

Higher ranks of Two-Dimensionality would thus be capable of cutting through pretty much anything, subject to appropriate FEAT rolls...

Quack, damn you...

Something that does tend to make it possible for someone to build an ultra-deadly weapon with lower resource costs compared to more conventional weapons. For a Monstrous rank cost (since such a mono-molecular edge isn't a practical earth technology just yet) you could take Two-Dimensionality at Incredible rank and slice through Shift-Y materials fairly easily. So unless you're Ultron, the Destroyer, or carrying at a minimum a True Adamantium or Uru shield you'd just about be toast going up against someone with such a weapon unless you're really creative.

"A shared universe, like any fictional construct, hinges on suspension of disbelief. When continuity is tossed away, it tatters the construct. Undermines it."

-- Peter David

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Nightmask Character Sheet

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Paragon Character Sheet

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Complete list of my characters various forum URLs, over 30 to enjoy!

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Godiva Character Sheet

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Seraphim Character Sheet

[www.furaffinity.net] Art by Marvel Comic's artist Rusty Haller!

[www.furaffinity.net] Artist/writer/Creator of The Extinctioners Independent super-hero comic!

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Sappho Character Sheet

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Cornucopia Character Sheet

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Nightmares of Futures Past Ongoing Story

[www.classicmarvel.com] - There is no such thing as too powerful Forum Thread

Given this question and some of the response regarding powers in the CL1000+ range I think there are some powers that aren't game unbalancing at such levels for a player to have. For example the various Matter Creation powers (Except perhaps Webcasting and Spray) are severely limited in other ways such that even at CL5000 rank the player's ability to exploit it is fairly limited.

The original listing for Regeneration in the Advanced book when compared to the Ultimate Powers Book also was effectively a CL1000 rank power given the vast increase in healing rate for the PC (Wolverine before he was turned into Regeneration Man actually healed much slower than the Advanced Set's regeneration, even though he was the most well-known character at the time with regeneration). The power itself is also unlikely to upset game balance even at the CL1000+ levels, although for a PC with a high rank in Endurance it might inconvenience a GM focused on just hammering a PC to zero health to challenge him.

There are of course the various Invulnerabilities from the advanced set that start at CL1000 level and were left out of the UPB that players can have. Also even TI at CL1000 rank isn't unbalancing as one doesn't have to inflicted physical damage on a character in order to defeat him or cause a hero trouble. The Human Shield might have CL1000 True Invulnerability but with all Good FASERIP he's not that hard for someone to incapacitate, and he can still suffocate and requires food and water without other powers to compensate.

Energy Conversion's only able to generate an emitted power dependent upon the incoming attack, so you could have CL5000 rank in the power but still not get much out of it without equally powerful attacks to convert (although admittedly the higher rank does make it a given he can convert an entire attack instead of having to settle for simply part of it). Dazzler's a limited example of this, her light-emission is only as good as the sound she's hit with, and without Banshee, his daughter, Black Bolt, or Klaw around she's limited to ambient sound since she doesn't carry any high-end sound generating technology like the device Reed Richards gave her early in her career.

Most of the travel powers aren't a problem at CL1000 levels either, they just help you cover greater distances more rapidly, or increase how much you can take at one time. Not too many of the travel powers become seriously troublesome at CL1000 levels (Teleport Self, Teleport Others, and Gateway being most notable, especially Gateway considering how much it increases the ease of opening portals to other times and dimensions).

I agree many of the mental powers become unbalanced at such levels, although certain powers aren't a problem like that. Linguistics for example, as it makes learning a new language a breeze as well as cracking any code (likely learning how to crack the genetic code as well since DNA is in the end just another form of language, like computer codes) but isn't likely to unbalance a game with a PC having CL1000 Linguistics. Hyper-Invention might make it extremely easy to learn any technology but the bonus of reduced resources doesn't change based on power rank and the chance of something not working actually increases with power rank (a Red feat while checking against Hyper-Invention indicates problems, so by CL1000 rank you've increased your failure rate by a good 10%-15%).

Other powers exist that aren't too unbalancing at the higher levels, one simply has to look at a power rather than the rank to determine if it's unbalancing. Unearthly Magnetism or Force Field Generation can become more unbalancing to a game than CL1000 True Invulnerabilit or Teleport-Self.

"A shared universe, like any fictional construct, hinges on suspension of disbelief. When continuity is tossed away, it tatters the construct. Undermines it."

-- Peter David

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Nightmask Character Sheet

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Paragon Character Sheet

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Complete list of my characters various forum URLs, over 30 to enjoy!

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Godiva Character Sheet

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Seraphim Character Sheet

[www.furaffinity.net] Art by Marvel Comic's artist Rusty Haller!

[www.furaffinity.net] Artist/writer/Creator of The Extinctioners Independent super-hero comic!

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Sappho Character Sheet

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Cornucopia Character Sheet

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Nightmares of Futures Past Ongoing Story

[www.classicmarvel.com] - There is no such thing as too powerful Forum Thread

Don't forget, swords and other melee weapons without any included blasts or ranged attack options benefit from the "has to touch the target" restriction during building, thus resulting in a -1cs bonus to their effective Resource cost to make ;)

Quack, damn you...

just more examples of the UPB being unbalanced and overpowered.

But just to be clear, the Class ranges [1000, 3000, 5000, B] cannot be achieved through intenstity markers or column shifts. The max on anything of that nature is SHZ or bust.

Thus, Something of SHZ intenstity/material/whatever cannot achieve damage at the Cl 1000 range, even on a red result.

Nothing unbalanced or overpowered about the UPB, since as it states on the back cover you can use it to build anything from a CPA to the Beyonder and everything in between. It'd hardly be reflective of the Marvel Universe if you couldn't model someone like Galactus or his heralds or something like Eternity as needed. Not everyone enjoys campaigning at the level of Captain America or Spider-man, some like the level of the Silver Surfer and Thor and that requires epic level villains at least some of the time.

"A shared universe, like any fictional construct, hinges on suspension of disbelief. When continuity is tossed away, it tatters the construct. Undermines it."

-- Peter David

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Nightmask Character Sheet

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Paragon Character Sheet

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Complete list of my characters various forum URLs, over 30 to enjoy!

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Godiva Character Sheet

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Seraphim Character Sheet

[www.furaffinity.net] Art by Marvel Comic's artist Rusty Haller!

[www.furaffinity.net] Artist/writer/Creator of The Extinctioners Independent super-hero comic!

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Sappho Character Sheet

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Cornucopia Character Sheet

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Nightmares of Futures Past Ongoing Story

[www.classicmarvel.com] - There is no such thing as too powerful Forum Thread

Im glad there are people still playing this wonderful game. My question now is under the rules stated, would said person with this weapon do full damage to the target regardless of armor?

In the case of Nemesis' sword, it would depend on the rank of the power given to its two-dimensionality (monomolecular sharpness) to determine the material strength / armor rank the blade would ignore (the equivalent the two-dimensionality power rank +5 column shifts).

Damage would be as normal (wielder's Strength +1cs)

Blocking with the edge of this sword against a Charging Hulk might effectively slice the green giant in half depending on the power rank of the two-dimensionality...

Ewww.

Thats kinda what I thought, but I wanted to confirm. Thanks a bunch.

Class 1000 Invisibilty to the blind. :)

Class 1000 psychosynesthesia...

"Sees evil"

"Hears sarcasm"

"Smells fear"

"Tastes defeat"

"Feels danger"

Hmmm....

True Sight at Class 1000 rank.

TLD

That's a good one, can't believe I didn't think of that one myself. You're pretty much immune to illusions and deceptions even by cosmic beings but for the average super-hero it's not going to give him an overwhelming edge like perhaps CL1000 rank Cosmic Awareness would.

"A shared universe, like any fictional construct, hinges on suspension of disbelief. When continuity is tossed away, it tatters the construct. Undermines it."

-- Peter David

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Nightmask Character Sheet

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Paragon Character Sheet

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Complete list of my characters various forum URLs, over 30 to enjoy!

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Godiva Character Sheet

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Seraphim Character Sheet

[www.furaffinity.net] Art by Marvel Comic's artist Rusty Haller!

[www.furaffinity.net] Artist/writer/Creator of The Extinctioners Independent super-hero comic!

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Sappho Character Sheet

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Cornucopia Character Sheet

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Nightmares of Futures Past Ongoing Story

[www.classicmarvel.com] - There is no such thing as too powerful Forum Thread