Starting with Class 1000, 3000 and 5000 Powers

Ok, this isn't about Invulnerability and the like, but more about heroes, villains, and the like, who seem to start with powers and abilities in the Class 1000-5000 range. Examples of this are Captain America's shield, Wolverine's Skeleton, and the like.

Have you ever let your players start with something akin to that, and if so, how did you handle it?

short answer:

nope

I may allow it if the player spends three powers on a special power called "Unique Weapon". Two powers if the weapon is like Cap's shield and can be taken away... three would be for the likes of Thor's Hammer, with built in power and can't be taken (well can, but it's far harder).

Hmmmm, a few of the powers let you shift up into the CL1000+ range by trading off range for effect, and vice versa (Elemental conversion, Molecular Conversion, Molding, and Disruption to name the ones I can think of off the top of my head), although you have to have a good roll for the starting rank to get such benefits. Some of my characters I've created benefit of powers or abilities in those ranks, although generally in powers with a limited range of benefits that aren't unbalancing (like Cornucopia's CL1000 rank creation powers).

Many powers can have some measure of defense or protection against even in the CL1000 range, but depends on your campaign and what you've got in mind. Someone starting as a PC with CL1000 Gravity Manipulation or Illusion-Casting would be inherently unbalancing, whereas someone with CL3000 True Flight or Teleportation isn't particularly unbalancing. So much of it comes down to a case-by-case basis for what powers you've got in mind to consider allowing a PC to have over Unearthly rank and up into the Shift or even CL1000+ range.

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You rank Unique Weapon as that expensive? It didn't even cost two powers in the original Players Handbook did it? Admittedly there does end up being some house rules required to handle such 'composite' characters who have a set-up that falls into several categories, like Wolverine as a Random Mutant/Modified Human: Skeletal. Options to use True Adamantium seem to have slowly increased over the years in Marvel (just look at the shrapnel bombs used against the Hulk recently), might even be some increased access to Uru metal with the return of Thor and Asguard on Earth (which I favor over the Reigning version years ago), and as long as a PC isn't getting tons of the stuff some reasonable use, like a weapon or shield or a few other items of such material wouldn't be inherently unbalancing.

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Nightmask Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You rank Unique Weapon as that expensive? It
> didn't even cost two powers in the original
> Players Handbook did it?

I didn't even see such a power in the books. I just made it up. If there was such a power in the books, I must have missed it.

And yes, for a Class 3000 sword that cuts through body armor like a hot knife through butter I charge 2 powers... 3 if the weapon has other powers and/or is difficult to lose.

Hmmmm, well if it's not listed in the Advanced it was listed in the basic as I distinctly remember Unique Weapon as a selection. Too many heroes (and villains) have them for it not to be a valid power to select.

Also just because an items is constructed of CL1000+ materials doesn't automatically mean it can cut through anything, even if you have Hulk-level strength. Unless you simply expect a player to insist on such power from the outset and charge accordingly.

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Uh, dude... Adamantium can "cut through anything" -because- it's a Class 1000 material. That's the only reason. As long as said weapon has a cutting edge and is of those really high material strengths, yes, you're going to bypass armor. The rule I use in my games is this:

If the material strength of the cutting implement is below the rank of the body armor in question (natural or artificial), the full rank of the armor is used for protection. If the material strength is equal or up to 4CS higher than the armor rank, the armor rating is halved in regards to resisting damage from that weapon. +5CS or higher? The weapon slices through that armor like it wasn't even there, and deals damage equal to the attacker's Strength +1CS (per standard weapon damage).

That's my house rule. Take it or leave it but I think it's a good one.

under this method how much damage do Wolverine's claws do?

Uh no, just being CL1000 doesn't grant a magical ability to cut through anything just because it's CL1000 material strength. A butter knife has enough of an edge to hurt someone but you aren't going to cut through an Unearthly material strength item just because the knife was made of True Adamantium. The best edge around won't cut through anything as if there were no resistance just because it's got a great edge to it either, if it hasn't the strength behind it. You need at least enough strength behind it to force the edge through the material, otherwise it'll just glance off or perhaps gouge it but not sheer through like it wasn't there.

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That makes a lot of assumptions though regarding the comparative material strengths of the blade and the object being cut.

For instance cutting through unearthly material strength might be more or less dificult depending on how thick the material being cut through is. If it's paper thing, Wolvie's claws probably would cut through it like a speeding bullet through soft butter. But if it's 6 inches thick, it might be much harder to cut through.

Also isn't there a matter of organic vs. inorganic material?

Probably, been a while since I've looked over those rules, although they do use Wolverine as a specific example of someone with CL1000 material strength claws and his need because of his lower strength for items with thick armor (like Sentinels) to shred the armor first to get at the insides, and requires a red feat to do it. So clearly while his claws are so durable and great at cutting flesh and thinner metal his strength is a limiting factor with regards to the material strength of something as to whether he can cut it or not.

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capocastillo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> under this method how much damage do Wolverine's
> claws do?

Excellent Damage. His Strength +1CS.

Nightmask Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Uh no, just being CL1000 doesn't grant a magical
> ability to cut through anything just because it's
> CL1000 material strength.

As long as it's got a keen cutting edge, you bet it does.

> A butter knife has
> enough of an edge to hurt someone but you aren't
> going to cut through an Unearthly material
> strength item just because the knife was made of
> True Adamantium.

Come on, man. A butter knife doesn't count as a "keen cutting edge". A sword or Wolverine's claws do. You're talking apples and oranges.

> The best edge around won't cut
> through anything as if there were no resistance
> just because it's got a great edge to it either,
> if it hasn't the strength behind it.

In Marvel, you better believe it works that way. I can cite comics with Wolverine.

> You need at
> least enough strength behind it to force the edge
> through the material, otherwise it'll just glance
> off or perhaps gouge it but not sheer through like
> it wasn't there.

So the comment of:

Cyclops: "Wolverine! You have to be careful! One casual wave of your arm can slice through a steel girder like a hot knife through butter! Supposed you slip--"

Wolverine: "I don't slip, bub"

was just hogwash? I don't buy it.

You guys are correct though, that thickness does count. But it's already been established that Wolverine's claws count as CL1000 in terms of their breakability, even though they are very thin. So at least in terms of Adamantium, it seems Marvel feels thickness isn't an issue so much.

Marvel goes along with whatever seems impressive, no matter how ludicrous anymore, just like the power creep for Wolverine's regenerative ability. A casual swipe of his claws isn't going to cut through a steel girder, in part for the same reason a chain-saw gets caught in a tree, friction and pressure along the flat sides. His claws don't have a monomolecular edge to them and cutting-wise are no more or less dangerous than a conventional steel sword in most situations. A properly chipped piece of flint is sharper than surgical steel but the one will survive stresses the other won't. Wolverine's claws only have the benefit that he doesn't have to worry about them being broken under most situations and if he pushes his strength he can cut through most armor to lay bare what it's covering. He's not going to be cutting through Secondary Adamantium though unless someone with considerably higher strength than him is holding his hands to make it work.

"A shared universe, like any fictional construct, hinges on suspension of disbelief. When continuity is tossed away, it tatters the construct. Undermines it."

-- Peter David

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i think there's plenty of instances where Wolverine has cut up to Unearthly material strength in the comics though to reasonably say that the strength he possesses can cut through most standard substances that he'll come across with minimal effort.

So against the Hulk say, with his Mn protection from Physical would suffer 20 pts of damage each swipe? [assuming your model, of course]

I agree with Nightmask on this one. Material strength means nothing without the force to push it.

TAG

I think the question here is how much force is needed against how strong of a material. Going based solely off of comics, even early appearances of Wolverine having him cut through just about anything with those claws of his just short of mystical things. But things like say, chain link fence, steel, solid rock, wolverine has been able to cut it without exerting himself.

So what's the upper limit of what wolverine can cut as is limited by his strength?

Yes. I believe the Hulk's hide should do jack against Wolverine's claws. The comics seem to agree with me half the time and disagree the other half. The Hulk's main protection isn't his hide anyway... it's his insane regen.