Working DC Universe Sourcebook

Hi everyone, as you might recall from previous posts in the Revamp section of the Forum, I am (one day this century) going to release a rewrite of the Mayfair's "Atlas of the DC Universe", but for MSH stats.

I will also be using my new extended Roll Charts (the additional FN(60), SP(70), and WN (90) ranks) for this book. But don't worry, if you don't want to use my new ranks, the character stats will be in the back of the book as an Appendix, so you can promptly ignore it. Of course you can still read the numbers and use the old ranks too, so it's not like the characters will be useless.

But this gets to the heart of the matter, how and what stats to I use for a MHS-ized DC Character? I've seen a lot of the Profiles on this site, but where did they come from? Is it in game balance to have Superman with CL3000 abilities? Why does he need ShY Endurance? If we look at DC's stats, these ranks don't seem to hold up. Here is the official ranks (we will ignore Powers for now) of Superman from Mayfair:

Dex 15; Str 25; Body 18; Int 11; Will 20; Mind 15; Infl 10; Aura 10; Spirit 10 with a Charisma skill of 15 and no Martial Arts skills

Now, there are a few different conversion styles out there, but none of them would put his Endurance at ShY. I personally like the method developed by Norseman:

Fighting = (Dexterity + Martial Arts Skill) / 2 * 5
Agility = Dexterity * 5
Strength = Strength * 5
Endurance = Body * 5
Reason = Intelligence * 5
Intuition = (Intelligence + Willpower + Mind) / 3 * 5
Psyche = (Willpower + Aura + (Spirit * 2)) / 4 * 5
Resources = Wealth * 2
Popularity = Influence (Negative for villains)
Powers = Powers * 5

Michael Taylor made a great Excel spread sheet that does these Norseman calculations automatically, thanks Mike! So with this formula and the stats published, we get:

Fighting IN(38)
Agility MN(75)
Strength UN(125)
Endurance UN(90)
Reason AM(55)
Intuition MN(77)
Psyche MN(63)
Popularity of AM(50)

or in my system

F - IN (38)
A - SP (75)
S - UN (125)
E - WN (90)
R - AM (55)
I - MN (77)
P - FN (63)

and his powers are very high too, just about all in the UN and MN rank with lowest power being his super-hearing at IN (40). I think this is a much better balanced Superman in the game world than what I have seen before. He is a major powerhouse, but not a God. I mean in the conversion, he has True Invulnerability of UN (110)! Crap almighty! there is no need to let him have ShY Endurance too!

I'm seeking game balance and also as true of a representation as I can. The only "true" source I have, for a game, is the official publications, it's all i have. Otherwise I am relying on opinion from myself and others, and we get nowhere with that.

Writers come and go and the powers of character vary wildly between those writers for those characters. When Superman first appeared, he was not a God. Hell, he could not even fly when he first appeared, he could only jump great distances (hence, "... able to leap tall buildings in a single bound.") Then in the 60s he was flying around and pushing moons and planets. Remember when he reshaped a world into a cube for Bizzaro? Now he is a "normal" yet very very powerful hero. Can you hurt him, yes. Does it take everything you got and more, yes. But the point is, he can get beat, otherwise, how the hell does Luthor bother him for the last 50+ years?

Of course, opinions on this topic is appreciated and almost mandatory. Make your voice heard, Fanboy!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/29/2006 10:10AM by davidrpaige.

I have tried most of the conversions to marvel and have never come up with those numbers. They are more than a little low compared to what ive come up with. Now on the other hand shift z came up often for endurance and to me that is high but not out of whack. Unless supermans powers have changed in the last year this is closer to what I feel his endurance should be. Superman never tires, ever he just keeps on going and going. He can fly from solar system to solar system. Fight for days at a time so he should have much better endurance than the other dc powerhouse's. The fighting seems good.

Conversions are always a pain in the neck, but we can look to other systems that have different benchmarks and convert characters there and use that as a starting point in converting to Classic Marvel.

I am a fan of the Saga system and I'll use their benchmarks (however subjective they are) to describe and then convert Superman (lets stick to basic attributes to start with though):

Strength: 20 ("ultimate limit of mortals"; easist rank)
Agility: 15 ("unbelievably agile"; one rank higher than "far faster than human" withough putting him "overwhelmingly agile")
Intellect: 6 ("high IQ human"; but not quite "genius level")
Willpower: 10 ("maximum unaltered human"; using character benchmarks here, I think he'd rank right below Prof. X, but no more than one rank)

I won't get into powers, as they get complicated, but we can use this same tactic.

Skills (no more than 4 per attribute to keep it simple) can be done based on what we've seen Supes do:

Strength Skills: Boxing, Hyper Breath
Agility Skills: Aerial Combat, Martial Arts
Intellect Skills: Journalism
Willpower Skills: Leadership

Hindrances:
Fatally Vulnerable to Kryptonite
Susceptible to Magic

Calling: Idealist

Edge 4, Hand Size 6 (he is DC's finest)

Now to build him Classic Marvel-style using Saga's conversion system (backwards):

Stength 20= Stength UN
Agility 15= Agilty MN
Intellect 6= Reason Ex
Willpower 10= Psyche AM

Intuition= # of (Intellect + Willpower Skills) x 20= 2 x 20= 40, IN

(Karma total is 110, we'll need that for later)

Endurance (the hardest to calculate)= 260+ (4 edge)- 110 (Karma)- 100 (Popularity?)> AT LEAST AM (usually ranked at UN, and I am happy with that.

Fighting= # of (Agility + Strength Skills)x 10= 4 x 10= 40 IN

Summary

F IN 40
A MN 75
S UN 100
E UN 100
R EX 20
I IN 40
P AM 50

Health: 315
Karma: 110

Skills become Talents:
Martial Arts B, D
Repair/Tinker
Journalism
Leadership

Anything Missing (like powers, other details) can be done the same way. Of course we can always use the old school benchmark system, but I feel this one is cleaner and more up to date.

One of the things I've noticed, as someone who plays at the lower end of the scale from most of my peers (Amazing and Monstrous are the highest hero scores you'll see in my world; Remarkable and Incredible primary powers are more common) is that in MSH, End. at "low" levels is very different from DC.
Among "normal" human characters in Marvel like DareDevel, Moon Knight, Ant Man, Hawkeye etc, getting a REM endurance instead of Ex endurance is pretty rare.
In fact, for years I though there was an error and REM was like Amz for fighting i.e. A rarely achieved pinnacle of natural ability and intensive training; almost superhuman.
Then I started trying to bring DC heroes into my campaign, and it seems like REM rank end. was being given out like candy: Both Arsenal and Green Arrow, Catwoman, Nightwing, Huntress, and in some write ups, Blue Beetle and The Question.
Before anyone freaks out and starts explaining how much @#$%& Grayson exercises, relax. I know. I'm not saying he shouldn't be Rem. Or that Hawkeye shouldn't be at Ex.
What I'm saying is this appears off balance to me at the Ex/Rem level.
MARK

PS In MY campaign, someone better have a good reason why they have the same amount of stamina as supersoldier induced Capt. America. I've dropped to Ex. all of the DC heroes mentioned above, and even use the Christian Bale movie version of Batman who I have statted with Good strength and EX. endurance (Inc. fighting, if you're curious)

"My parents went to The Secret Wars Battleworld and all I got was this lousy T-Shirt..."

I've got some stats done from the Atlas to the DC Universe so feel free to look around my site for comparison or ask about specific ones here.

Mark Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> PS In MY campaign, someone better have a good
> reason why they have the same amount of stamina as
> supersoldier induced Capt. America. I've dropped
> to Ex. all of the DC heroes mentioned above, and
> even use the Christian Bale movie version of
> Batman who I have statted with Good strength and
> EX. endurance (Inc. fighting, if you're curious)


I for one am very curious to see what all the movie version of Batman looks like if you could post it here.

Ok, so I looked up DC stats for Superman. Now, while the stats i posted earlier was for the current incarnation of Superman, DC has also posted a Pre-Crisis and an Earth-2 version of Superman. The stats are as follows:

Post-Crisis (Silver-Age)
Dex 26; Str 50; Body 40; Int 13; Will 22; Mind 15; Infl 10; Aura 10; Spirit 4 with a Charisma skill of 20 and no Martial Arts skills

Flight 45; Heat Vision 30; invulnerability 50; Sealed System 20; Solar Sustenance 50; Super Breath 20; Superspeed 25; Systemic Antedote 20; Various Sight Powers at 15; Various Hearing Powers at 10; X-Ray Vision 20

Converting these stats to MSH:

Fighting MN (65)
Agility ShX (130)
Strength ShY (250)
Endurance ShY (200)
Reason MN (65)
Intuition MN(83)
Psyche AM(50)
Popularity of AM(50)

Flight ShY(225); Heat Vision ShX (150); invulnerability ShY(250); Sealed System UN(100); Solar Sustenance ShY(250); Super Breath UN(100); Superspeed UN(125); Systemic Antedote UN(100); Various Sight Powers at MN(75); Various Hearing Powers at AM(50); X-Ray Vision UN(100)

What can I say but WOW! A health of 645, that is if you get through his 250 point Invulnerability! Even a Celestrial would have a hard time with this guy.

Now, the Earth-2 is almost as powerful:

Dex 17; Str 36; Body 38; Int 10; Will 23; Mind 13; Infl 10; Aura 10; Spirit 4 with a Charisma skill of 20 and no Martial Arts skills

The only difference in the powers from the Pre-Crisis Superman is his Invulnerability 48

That translates to:

Fighting IN(43)
Agility MN(85)
Strength ShY (180)
Endurance ShY (190)
Reason AM(50)
Intuition MN(77)
Psyche AM(51)
Popularity of AM(50)

Invulnerability ShY (240)

So those are the Supermen in the DC Hero's publishings. Have fun

Yeah i have the book as well i have a slightly.. altered take on him. not to far off from yours though.

Might as well post the whole Super - Family pre-crisis since i have the time and need to streatch my conversion skills:

Superman - Kal - El

F: Un/100
A: Un/100
S: Sh Z/500
E: Sh Y/200
R: In/40
I: AM/50
P: In/40
Health: 900
Karma: 130
Resources: Rm/30
Popularity: 100
Powers:

Invulnerabilities:
* Body Resistance: Sh Y/200 resistance to all attacks
* Heat, Cold, Radiation, Toxins & Disease: CL 1000
* Solar Sustance: CL 1000, Superman has no need to eat or breath while exposed to an abundant source of cosmic energy like our sun.

Cosmic Energy Manipulation:
* Hyper-hearing: In/40
* Heat Vision: Sh X/150
* Microscopic Vision: Am/50
* Telescopic Vision: Am/50
* Thermal Vision: Am/50
* Penetration Vision: Mn/75
* Hyper-speed: Un/100
* Hyper-Breath: Mn/75
* Ventriloquism: Am/50

Psionics:
* Flight: Sh Y/200
* Total Memory: Sh X/150

Limitations:

* Looses all powers under Red Sun radiation
* Penetration Vision cant see through lead

* Green Kryptonite: Kryptonite causes Superman to lose all his powers at -1CS per round. He also loses 1 rank of Strength and Endurance (with its loss of Health) per round until death occurs at Shift-0 Endurance. Removal of the Green Kryptonite enables Superman's body to regain lost ranks at a rate of one per round.

* Red Kryptonite: Exposure to this isotope causes Kryptonians to under go bizare but temporary changes, typically for a period of 24-48 hours.

* Gold Kryptonite: Exposure to this isotope completly removes a Kryptonians powers forever.

* Magic: All powers and attributes are rated at Gd/10 against Magic.

* High Gravity: Subtract the ranks in attacks from his powers, attributes. Attributes cannot be reduced below Sh 0.

Equipment:

* Uniform: Material Strength: Un/100; Body Armor: In/40

Talents: Diplomacy; Detective; Repair/tinkering; Science: all; Trivia: all human languages, literature, psychology, history, sociology

Contacts: Metropolis; Metropolis Prison; Pentagon; Press; UN; White House
-----------------------

Wow what a power house. this guy is Mr. I can do anything man.



Superboy (yes you can use this for Prime as well)

F: Mn/75
A: Mn/75
S: Sh Y/200
E: Sh X/150
R: In/40
I: In/40
P: In/40
Health: 500
Karma: 120
Resources: Ex/20
Popularity: 50
Powers:

Invulnerabilities:
* Body Resistance: Sh X/150 resistance to all attacks
* Heat, Cold, Radiation, Toxins & Disease: CL 1000
* Solar Sustance: CL 1000, Superman has no need to eat or breath while exposed to an abundant source of cosmic energy like our sun.

Cosmic Energy Manipulation:
* Hyper-hearing: In/40
* Heat Vision: Un/100
* Microscopic Vision: Am/50
* Telescopic Vision: Am/50
* Thermal Vision: Am/50
* Penetration Vision: Mn/75
* Hyper-speed: Un/100
* Hyper-Breath: Mn/75
* Ventriloquism: Am/50

Psionics:
* Flight: Sh Y/200
* Total Memory: Un/100

Limitations:

* Looses all powers under Red Sun radiation
* Penetration Vision cant see through lead

* Green Kryptonite: Kryptonite causes Superboy to lose all his powers at -1CS per round. He also loses 1 rank of Strength and Endurance (with its loss of Health) per round until death occurs at Shift-0 Endurance. Removal of the Green Kryptonite enables Superboy's body to regain lost ranks at a rate of one per round.

* Red Kryptonite: Exposure to this isotope causes Kryptonians to under go bizare but temporary changes, typically for a period of 24-48 hours.

* Gold Kryptonite: Exposure to this isotope completly removes a Kryptonians powers forever.

* Magic: All powers and attributes are rated at Gd/10 against Magic.

* High Gravity: Subtract the ranks in attacks from his powers, attributes. Attributes cannot be reduced below Sh 0.

Equipment:

* Uniform: Material Strength: Un/100; Body Armor: In/40

Talents: Diplomacy; Repair/tinkering; Science: all; Trivia: all human languages, history

Contacts: Smallville; Smallville Pen; United Nations; White House
-----------------------

If you really want some one that needs the GLC sent at him, bump his body resistance to Invulnerability. that should give anyone a hard time.



Supergirl - Kara Zor-El

F: Un/100
A: Un/100
S: Sh Y/200
E: Sh X/150
R: In/40
I: AM/50
P: In/40
Health: 550
Karma: 130
Resources: Rm/30
Popularity: 75
Powers:

Invulnerabilities:
* Body Resistance: Sh Y/200 resistance to all attacks
* Heat, Cold, Radiation, Toxins & Disease: CL 1000
* Solar Sustance: CL 1000, Superman has no need to eat or breath while exposed to an abundant source of cosmic energy like our sun.

Cosmic Energy Manipulation:
* Hyper-hearing: In/40
* Heat Vision: Un/100
* Microscopic Vision: Am/50
* Telescopic Vision: Am/50
* Thermal Vision: Am/50
* Penetration Vision: Mn/75
* Hyper-speed: Un/100
* Hyper-Breath: Mn/75
* Ventriloquism: Am/50

Psionics:
* Flight: Sh Y/200
* Total Memory: Un/100

Limitations:

* Looses all powers under Red Sun radiation
* Penetration Vision cant see through lead

* Green Kryptonite: Kryptonite causes Supergirl to lose all his powers at -1CS per round. He also loses 1 rank of Strength and Endurance (with its loss of Health) per round until death occurs at Shift-0 Endurance. Removal of the Green Kryptonite enables Supergirl's body to regain lost ranks at a rate of one per round.

* Red Kryptonite: Exposure to this isotope causes Kryptonians to under go bizare but temporary changes, typically for a period of 24-48 hours.

* Gold Kryptonite: Exposure to this isotope completly removes a Kryptonians powers forever.

* Magic: All powers and attributes are rated at Gd/10 against Magic.

* High Gravity: Subtract the ranks in attacks from her powers, attributes. Attributes cannot be reduced below Sh 0.

Equipment:

* Uniform: Material Strength: Mn/75; Body Armor: In/40

Talents: Acting; Diplomacy; Detective; Trivia: all human languages, literature, psychology, history, science

Contacts: Chicago; press; UN; JLA; White House
-----------------------


Superman - Kal L

F: Am/50
A: Am/50
S: Sh X/150
E: Sh X/150
R: In/40
I: In/40
P: In/40
Health: 400
Karma: 120
Resources: Rm/30
Popularity: 100
Powers:

Body Resistance: Sh Y/200
* Life Support: Mn/75
* Resistance - Toxins & Disease: CL 1000

Hyper-Vision:
* Heat Vision: Sh X/150
* Microscopic: In/40
* Telescopic: Am/50
* Thermal: Am/50
* Penetration: Mn/75

Flight: Shift Y/200
* Hyper-Speed: Un/100

Limitations:

* Looses all powers under Red Sun radiation
* Penetration Vision cant see through lead

* Green Kryptonite: Kryptonite causes Superman to lose all his powers at -1CS per round. He also loses 1 rank of Strength and Endurance (with its loss of Health) per round until death occurs at Shift-0 Endurance. Removal of the Green Kryptonite enables Superman's body to regain lost ranks at a rate of one per round.

* Magic: All powers and attributes are rated at Gd/10 against Magic.

* High Gravity: Subtract the ranks in attacks from his powers, attributes. Attributes cannot be reduced below Sh 0.

Talents: Journalist; Diplomacy; Detective; Repair/tinkering

Contacts: Metro-Police; Metro-Prison; Street; UN; White House
-----------------------------


Power Girl - Kara

F: Un/100
A: Un/100
S: Sh X/150
E: Sh X/150
R: In/40
I: Am/50
P: In/40
Health: 400
Karma: 130
Resources: Ex/20
Popularity: 50
Powers:

Body Resistance: Un/100
* Life Support: Mn/75
* Resistance - Toxins & Disease: CL 1000

Hyper-Vision:
* Heat Vision: Un/100
* Microscopic: In/40
* Telescopic: Am/50
* Thermal: Am/50
* Penetration: Mn/75

Flight: Shift X/150
* Hyper-Speed: Am/50

Limitations:

* Looses all powers under Red Sun radiation
* Penetration Vision cant see through lead

* Green Kryptonite: Kryptonite causes Supergirl to lose all his powers at -1CS per round. He also loses 1 rank of Strength and Endurance (with its loss of Health) per round until death occurs at Shift-0 Endurance. Removal of the Green Kryptonite enables Supergirl's body to regain lost ranks at a rate of one per round.

* Magic: All powers and attributes are rated at Gd/10 against Magic.

* High Gravity: Subtract the ranks in attacks from her powers, attributes. Attributes cannot be reduced below Sh 0.

Talents: Computers

Contacts: Infinity INC; Pemberton Industries; Ultimate Computer Corp
-----------------------------

"No where to hide. No place to run. Your village will BURN like the heart of the SUN!" - Richard, Head warlock of the Brotherhood of Darkness, Lord of the 13 Hells, Master of the Bones, Emperor of the Black, Lord of the Undead, Lord of the Dance.

to keep things from getting out of hand I have kept his end. at Mn...but have have given him hyper-endurance that only effects his feat rolls(mainly kill rolls..he tends to get slammed a lot in comics and cartoons) not his health(this is part of his ability to store solar energy). Makes him more DC like but also keeps him grounded. remember that he cannot survive in space for that long(still needs to breath)....someone who has a SH-Z or higher endurance has for the most gained the life support power

I have Superman as:

F: Rm 30
A: Mn 75
s: Un 100
E: Mn 75
R: Gd 10
I: Mn 75
P: Rm 30

still works out to be Health: 280. For a character of his level in comparison to others on his level (Thor, Surfer, Thanos) i cant see him haveing stats that low.

dont get me wrong his fighting is spot on. his strength and endurance could use a +1cs.

Yeah i know all his stats do not support it, in fact that support the 280 number. but logic and common sense dictate otherwise.

"No where to hide. No place to run. Your village will BURN like the heart of the SUN!" - Richard, Head warlock of the Brotherhood of Darkness, Lord of the 13 Hells, Master of the Bones, Emperor of the Black, Lord of the Undead, Lord of the Dance.

mind you these numbers are PRE-Crisis stats, Supes & Family were toned down alot in the ensuing 20 years.

"No where to hide. No place to run. Your village will BURN like the heart of the SUN!" - Richard, Head warlock of the Brotherhood of Darkness, Lord of the 13 Hells, Master of the Bones, Emperor of the Black, Lord of the Undead, Lord of the Dance.

Bsically, my transfer method is:
0 = Shift 0
1 = Feeble
2= Poor
3 = Typical
4 = Good
5 = Excellent
6 - 7 = Remarkable
8 -10 = Incredible
11 - 15 = Amazing
16 - 20 = Monsterous
21 -25 = Unearthly

Fighting = Initiative + Martial Arts/4
Agility = Dexterity
Strength = Strength
Endurance = Body
Reason = Intelligence
Intuition = Initiative/3
Psyche = (Influence + Mind + Will + Aura + Spirit)/5

It's not full-proof, but it works on most characters. Some, like the Brain, end up making no sense at all. I also balance it out, as I did with Supes, by taking into account how the character has been presented and how I see them. Honestly, Superman gets his butt handed to him quite frequently until the writer wants to show what he can do (how else are the Toyman & the Prankster considered threats).

ooops, In this post where i gave the stats for 2 Supermen, an Earth-2 and one I labeled Post-Crisis (Silver Age), i mistyped, I meant to say, Pre-Crisis (Silver Age), not Post. Post Crisis is a much weaker stat character.

My bad