Ultron vs Nimrod
Posted by Galactus 1
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I've always thought of Doomsday's ability as a more realistic depiction of Evolution, which in comics is almost always assumed to have a purpose, which is silly as Evolution can't have a purpose to its actions anymore than Gravity can, and certainly doesn't have a 'everything must evolve to humanoid form, sentience, then thin bodies with hyper-evolved minds'. Doomsday and those similar to him before and since (I believe 2099 had a villain with the power of personal evolution who fought Spider-man 2099) have the version in keeping with the textbook definition of evolution, that is when provided with challenges in their environment they evolve and adapt to overcome the challenge personally rather than developing traits passed on to descendents who are better suited for the environment that they aren't.
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I am going to go out on a limb here.
I will say Ultron: What I would do... and I am not a Genius. organise some heros to fight Nimrod. Observe and collect data and materials from Nimrod. Analyse said data and materials. Incorporate them into my own structure. Nimrod does not have free will. He has set programing. Ultron has free will and sees himself as superior hates humans yes but still has independant thought. I believe that he has the ability to retreat should a fight go sour. I am not so sure that Nimrod has the ability to willingly retreat should a fight go sour. regardless of when each one was made you have to take the above into account. If ultron attacked without prior prep... he is molten metal. If he did research.... he would win.
Actually Nimrod is self-aware and sentient, at least in his original incarnation he clearly decided to not go along with his programming to hunt and exterminate all mutants when he came to what was his past and instead decided that as it wasn't his time and mutants weren't the threat they were seen as in his time that he would only hunt mutants proven to be evil by breaking the law in some fashion. If he lacked free will he would have gone the route of Master Mold and other sentinels and continued to exterminate them at all costs.
"A shared universe, like any fictional construct, hinges on suspension of disbelief. When continuity is tossed away, it tatters the construct. Undermines it." -- Peter David [www.classicmarvel.com] - Nightmask Character Sheet [www.classicmarvel.com] - Paragon Character Sheet [www.classicmarvel.com] - Complete list of my characters various forum URLs, over 30 to enjoy! [www.classicmarvel.com] - Godiva Character Sheet [www.classicmarvel.com] - Seraphim Character Sheet [www.furaffinity.net] Art by Marvel Comic's artist Rusty Haller! [www.furaffinity.net] Artist/writer/Creator of The Extinctioners Independent super-hero comic! [www.classicmarvel.com] - Sappho Character Sheet [www.classicmarvel.com] - Cornucopia Character Sheet [www.classicmarvel.com] - Nightmares of Futures Past Ongoing Story [www.classicmarvel.com] - There is no such thing as too powerful Forum Thread
Fangs Wrote:
------------------------------------------------------- > I am going to go out on a limb here. > > I will say Ultron: > > What I would do... and I am not a Genius. > organise some heros to fight Nimrod. > Observe and collect data and materials from > Nimrod. > > Analyse said data and materials. Incorporate them > into my own structure. > Nimrod does not have free will. He has set > programing. > > Ultron has free will and sees himself as superior > hates humans yes but still has independant > thought. I believe that he has the ability to > retreat should a fight go sour. > > I am not so sure that Nimrod has the ability to > willingly retreat should a fight go sour. > > regardless of when each one was made you have to > take the above into account. > > If ultron attacked without prior prep... he is > molten metal. > > If he did research.... he would win. Fangs, Punstarr is right. I understand your point but it seems you missed out on the abilities of Nimrod. He has retreated at least three times and came back stronger! Not to mention what ever you send at him he automatically develops a defense against it! And he is rogue and sentient! His programming allows him to act on his own volition!:D If you take into account all these things even prep would be futile since Nimrod is always evolving! Yet I like your going out on a limb! Ultron's ace in the hole [if he has one] is exactly his ability to manipulate others into doing things for him!8-) ____________________________________________ "POWER.... WITHOUT "perception" is virtually USELESS.... and therefore of NO.... "true" VALUE"
Nightmask Wrote:
------------------------------------------------------- > I've always thought of Doomsday's ability as a > more realistic depiction of Evolution, which in > comics is almost always assumed to have a purpose, > which is silly as Evolution can't have a purpose > to its actions anymore than Gravity can, and > certainly doesn't have a 'everything must evolve > to humanoid form, sentience, then thin bodies with > hyper-evolved minds'. Doomsday and those similar > to him before and since (I believe 2099 had a > villain with the power of personal evolution who > fought Spider-man 2099) have the version in > keeping with the textbook definition of evolution, > that is when provided with challenges in their > environment they evolve and adapt to overcome the > challenge personally rather than developing traits > passed on to descendents who are better suited for > the environment that they aren't. Wow Nightmask, either I disagree or someone made a serious mistake. Evolution: Does have a purpose just as life has one. Simply put survival! The more it encounters change the more life begins to alter its form to adapt to these changes. That why life exists in so many forms. Each specifically adapted to its environment. What doesn't adapt becomes extinct! This is why in the forest, the white moth dies and is rare since being white prevents it from blending with its environment to hide from predators. This is why the polar bear has white hair and black skin. This allows the bear to reflect the maximum amount of the harmful rays of the sun and yet maintain the heat it receives as darker flesh absorbs the suns heat! It is also why the whale has such high fat deposits so that it can survive for long periods without needing to feed all the time and to keep it warm in the cold depths of the sea! It is why Carcharodon Megalodon is extinct due to the lack of sufficient food sources to sustain such a large predator. It is also why most predators tend to be lean and muscular to generate the explosive energy needed catch their prey, which also requires them to eat more often! This is surely design/purpose! Now "why," it happens to be like this is another question, but the fact that it happens does have a reason! Just like your implications of intelligent life! Imagine, your intellect becomes prized, food & resources becomes scarce and the need to exercise or do daily activities is taken up by service robots eventually what is not used will become atrophied and the largest part of the body [i.e. the head] will remain the same or enlarge due to its constant use! Hence the evolution of man into that which he calls aliens! It is a real part of our "evolution" if we live long enough! Besides, what you say here, "developing traits passed on to descendents who are better suited for the environment that they aren't." is exactly what "evolution" is! Remember that the brain and the body are not one in the same! Your brain exists and it holds your capacity to think! It, like the body is an organ yet it is distinct. Gravity exists like, life forms exist, but they are distinct and rules for them are not the same or your lungs could also hold the same capacity to think as your brain. Furthermore, you love your family correct? Just cause it exists doesn't mean it can be deduced the same way you have deduced gravity...cause love does have a purpose! It is how infant humans [and parental adults] develop primary relationships that ensure the infant's survival from birth as long as a parental adult is willing to reciprocate! ____________________________________________ "POWER.... WITHOUT "perception" is virtually USELESS.... and therefore of NO.... "true" VALUE"
You might want to check some of the Wiki Entries related to evolution, particularly the search for Intelligent Life. Evolution has no goal, no purpose, it's an impersonal force. Intelligence, especially continually advancing reason isn't some goal evolution has for all life, or any life for that matter. Some of the longest lasting species that have shown little if any evolution over millions of years have little if any higher awareness, like sharks. Humanity is simply a fluke that for our ancestors intelligence and larger brain capacity was a benefit and not a deficit and has for the most part paid off for us, although we seem to be going backwards with the level of stupidity evidenced by so many humans anymore. All sorts of species get along just fine with few if any brain cells and no need for more, and might even be hindered by greater intelligence, it's just a conceit of humanity that ranks intelligence as so special evolution must have intelligence and self-awareness as a goal.
"A shared universe, like any fictional construct, hinges on suspension of disbelief. When continuity is tossed away, it tatters the construct. Undermines it." -- Peter David [www.classicmarvel.com] - Nightmask Character Sheet [www.classicmarvel.com] - Paragon Character Sheet [www.classicmarvel.com] - Complete list of my characters various forum URLs, over 30 to enjoy! [www.classicmarvel.com] - Godiva Character Sheet [www.classicmarvel.com] - Seraphim Character Sheet [www.furaffinity.net] Art by Marvel Comic's artist Rusty Haller! [www.furaffinity.net] Artist/writer/Creator of The Extinctioners Independent super-hero comic! [www.classicmarvel.com] - Sappho Character Sheet [www.classicmarvel.com] - Cornucopia Character Sheet [www.classicmarvel.com] - Nightmares of Futures Past Ongoing Story [www.classicmarvel.com] - There is no such thing as too powerful Forum Thread
Nightmask Wrote:
------------------------------------------------------- > You might want to check some of the Wiki Entries > related to evolution, particularly the search for > Intelligent Life. Evolution has no goal, no > purpose, it's an impersonal force. Intelligence, > especially continually advancing reason isn't some > goal evolution has for all life, or any life for > that matter. Some of the longest lasting species > that have shown little if any evolution over > millions of years have little if any higher > awareness, like sharks. Humanity is simply a > fluke that for our ancestors intelligence and > larger brain capacity was a benefit and not a > deficit and has for the most part paid off for us, > although we seem to be going backwards with the > level of stupidity evidenced by so many humans > anymore. All sorts of species get along just fine > with few if any brain cells and no need for more, > and might even be hindered by greater > intelligence, it's just a conceit of humanity that > ranks intelligence as so special evolution must > have intelligence and self-awareness as a goal. Ok, let's try it this way! For all you have said I would take this one step further and see where it goes! First we must draw two distinctions! First is that evolution serves the purpose of furthering the existence of life forms. As stated, that which does not evolve or adapt to change becomes extinct! That is a fact! This purpose is merely arbitrary! Second is that nature must have a harmony like when a fire purges a forest or a flood covers a geographical area. These things happen to sustain life forms and keep a type predictable order to certain ecosystems. This is the theory behind global warming and why deforestation and melting of the polar caps is so pressing. It implies [and I believe it] these phenomena and living organisms are all connected. Taking these factors into account you can not deny the inherent necessity for evolution, it brings balance to change which is inevitable! It will either be long [like global warming]or violently short [like the extinction of the Dinosaurs] but it must happen. Which makes it essential to the stability of things. To ignore this is a choice, but it is present and real just as the break down of one species or ecosystem directly affects another that may be dependent on it. Or like plate tectonics, you can think that the planet is made of one uniform surface, but it is not! Design is present here just as purpose, how it came to be may be arbitrary, but it still serves a purpose. Sadly you may be confusing sentience with design or purpose. The fact is that there is order and chaos in the universe but one can not assume that for order to exist that it must be sentient! The issue being addressed here is best understood as "what is happening" rather than "why is it happening." Only the later need have a sentient explanation! ____________________________________________ "POWER.... WITHOUT "perception" is virtually USELESS.... and therefore of NO.... "true" VALUE"
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