Inflated ranks (in general)

First gripe: Why is it now that every lower-level character now has an Amaz F stat? If this is the maximum human ability, why isn't it reserved for the few characters who really warranted it? In the early edition, Captain America, I think, was the only guy who had it. Wolverine, for example, was at Incr. Keep in mind that an Olympic level boxer would probably be around Exc fighting rank.

Second: In the same vein, what about the S stat? Captain America used to be the strongest only human-level character, and he had an excellent strength. Wolverine, Daredevil, Iron Fist, and so on had Good (10). Since when did CA become Rem and Wolverine become excellent?

I guess it's the same trend of giving every one of the powerhouses "class 100" strength, even if it makes no comic sense and also tends to "round out" real differences in strength and skill that were apparent in comics but not adequately reflected in game terms.

I also have an issue with ssome of these stat increases.

I commented on Niniri's Psylocke write up that her having Amazing Fighting was just totally unrealistic, especially given her history and record of wins and losses against various characters.

There are some who state that there has been development of these characters' abilities beyond the stats they were initially given in the material printed in 1985. However, has the progress been /that/ great?

In some cases I do indeed feel it's warrented. Wolverine having been alive for over 100 years, having full access to his memories, and considering the caliber of foes he's fought and beaten, i'll concede an Amazing fighting for him. But i've also seen him with writeups having Remarkable strength. Sorry, i don't buy it. There just aren't any examples of him demonstrating the ability to lift a ton, regardless of how much bigger his muscles are drawn these days.

Cap having Remarkable Stength, well the comics have been supporting that quite a bit more than him just having Excellent. Really, as long as I can find reasonable examples of a character /consistently/ performing feats above and beyond their stat write ups, i support it. Key word: Consistently. Iron Fist has /consitently/ shown that he is above the Incredible Fighting he was originally given from 80's TSR write ups. Several writers have had Fist display a great deal of mastery over fighting arts in the 90's and 2000 + that i can accept an fighting increase for him. But if one writer has a hard on for a character, while the rest of the wirters depict a character much more reigned in, then i default to reason.

Part of the problem though, has been newer editions of the Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe. They have gone to a power rating system with the coal of defining the scope of a character's ability on a scale of 1 - 7. However, the trouble in paradise is that these scores don't correllate well into game terms, as there are by far and away more than 7 rank scores. But also, there's a quality control aspect that is somewhat lacking. The scores don't correllate well to what has been demonstrated in the comics. Those two factors make using the Handbook as the sole referrence for character moddelling flawed. Of course there are many people on this board who don't even collect comics anymore, so the handbook, wikipedia entries, etc. are the only references they can go by.

Hey, Capo,

I'm modelling in comparison with other characters whom she's been shown fighting against and what their stats are shown being
as the "best" examples of how to comparativley "model". Some of it is opinion, and some of it is simply a person's best guess as it were.

Comics characters have been comparitvely getting more and more 'powerful' (or "inflated" if you wish to term it that way). For, example, they've given Psylocke a 6 rank in fighting, per the 'new' handbooks, where as, she was a 5 for a very long time. That's another factor I've been referencing, and to whom else that rank has been given.

Conversely, I might stat out Captain America with a degree of Martial Supremacy these days, to account for his expertise with his shield. Different folks are going to 'see' things in different ways, which is all I can say.

Regards,

Niniri

I think these inflated FASERIP Ranks come from people RPG playing with the ‘Human’ Characters and discovering they get Plus Shifts all over the place....

So instead of Wolverine having his ‘Normal’ human [FASERIP] with his PLUS Shifts ‘under certain conditions’.... The Players simply bump him to the next level....

This is what Wolverine used to be...

F: IN:40
A: RM:30
S: GD:10
E: RM:30
R: TY:06
I: MN:75
P: IN:40

Health: 110
Karma:121

Wolverine is only supposed to have about 100 to 110 Health...... And he gets [+1CS] for just about EVERY combat action.... Easily justifiable as the following.

F: AM:50
A: IN:40
S: EX:20
E: IN:40
R: GD:10
I: UN:100
P: AM:50

Health: 150.... (And Humans with just 100 HP are ‘Bad-Azz’)
Karma:160.... (And humans with 50 to 70 KP are total Master Minds)






It boils down to Human Adrenaline, and how the Character performs during ‘Combat’ or ‘Fighting’ and also using Karma Points to get things accomplished. So during a game the lower end Characters are Cranked Up to Max performance for ALL situations.

The same goes for Cap’n’ America....
His [FASERIP] used to be Peak Pinnacle Human... (110 to 150 Health)

F: AM:50
A: IN:40
S: EX:20
E: RM:30
R: EX:20
I: IN:40
P: AM:50

Health: 140.... (And Humans with just 100 HP are ‘Bad-Azz’)
Karma: 110.... (And humans with 50 to 70 KP are total Master Minds)

NOW Cap’n’ America is a total Strength Monger with ‘RM:30’ Brute Strength...... Which ‘RM:30 at it’s lowest level (Starting at 25 Points and ending at 34 points) would allow Cap’n’ America to hurl 2 to 4 Tons of mass..... Not just lift it or push it out of the way, but ‘Hurl’ it 10 to 15 feet in a 1 Area Throw.......

But he does have a limitation written into his Stats..... The Whole Paragraph basically states Cap’n’ America has EX:20 Strength + [1CS] for ALL Strength FEATs.....

Cap’n’ America FEAT Rolls on RM:30 Strength..... But can only execute EX:20 Strength....



www.TankerAce.com | www.Arcain.com | www.Viper99.com

The thing I agree has been missed for the most part in game terms is the Rank Number. Which TankerAce pointed out in his post.

Even in the comics, what I would do is look at what a character has done to gain enough Karma to move up in a particular stat. Has Daredevil for example, gained enough Karma in the last ten years of comics to advance an entire Fighting rank? I don't know. But I do know that the game is supposed to operate kind of like a comic book. Also I would consider what thing have happened to unlock greater potential. Like when Wolverine's memories were returned to him or whatever. There is a significant difference between a character having Good (8) Strength, and having Good (15) Strength, and I think we forget that sometimes.

Just thought I would throw another point of view in.

The Last Duskblade
Q-Class Forever!!!

That's a great point, in that the rank numbers may not differentiate the relative abilities of two characters who have the same rank but a different number.

Personally, I don't necessarily default to the most common depiction of a superhero, but rather the depiction whose stories I most enjoyed. Most of those happen to be less powerful, since making a hero vulnerable, in comics and literature, makes him or her more human and therefore (imho) more appealing.

I prefer the power-level of Wolverine, for example, as exhibited in his first limited series (Frank Miller's, I think). In that series, he was vulnerable; a normal, unaugmented human (Shingen) actually beat him up with a wooden sword, and almost killed him with a real one. He had to be sneaky, use strategy, and was a character that was easier to relate to. Contrast that with the recent "Enemy of the State" arc where he charges onto a plain full of hundreds, maybe thousands of enemy ninjas, and just plows through them, healing and regenerating as fast as he was injured. Now he just charges guys with guns and waits for their guns to go empty slapping rounds into him, then he kills them. There was a time that it was said if he had his throat cut, he'd die before he could heal, but nowadays even a rpg round that blows off all the flesh and muscle from the waist-down doesn't even come close ("Conspiracy of Dunces"). Gone is any sense of strategy or vulnerability, and, for me, much of his appeal. In that time, a "bad-@#$%&" human of around 100 health (or even less) was actually a threat to him, in game and comic terms. Nowadays, the inflated game stats reflect his inflated comic abilities.

The same with the Hulk. The Hulk lost in the early days, and could be beaten down or injured. Nowadays it would take a nuke to make him even notice.

The good writers (like Byrne and "Man of Steel") and great ones (Frank Miller's "Dark Knight Returns") all seem to get great results by making the characters vulnerable. Byrne actually powered down Superman considerably from his god-like Golden & Silver age stats when he could routinely time travel and move planets, and it made him a lot better character, and the stories with him were better written. "Dark Knight" was great because Batman was old, and couldn't do the things he could when he was young, and had to adapt. Alan Moore wrote some of his greatest DC stories having the characters showing vulnerability (Superman catching a fatal disease, for example, or having Mongul trap him with an alien mind-trap). That makes for better stories, imho, and for better playing in games.

I generally prefer the depowered characters if everyone else insists on a powerhouse, or (in the group I'm in now) having even the popular characters scaled down to make them more fun (at least for us). Comics seem to be going the route of the Golden Age comics of having really god-like superheroes, and the writing is suffering; it's not as much fun to read about gods.

The power level of heroes in comics vs. in the game, of course, are two different things, but I think the former has obviously led to the latter.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/12/2008 09:54PM by civet5285.

It's an unfortunate factor of things that characters have that unlisted 'power of public popularity' that as they grow in popularity so to does their power until it's an irrational level above where they started. Instead of writing better stories with them as they are they escalate to show how great they are and unstoppable. Wolverine's Marvel's version of Superman in that regard (although Hulk's close he hasn't escalated as much in relation to Wolverine from his start point) having dropped in creativity and amped up powers so he doesn't plot or do anything just wait for his opponents to tire out against his regenerative invulnerability then kill them.

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