Hulk's Adrenalin Surge

civet5285 Wrote:
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>
> But how do you guys deal with Agility, and with
> the speed-ball characters in general? Because just
> using the Fighting stat wouldn't do justice to the
> speedballs in the comics world.
>

Well, in terms of pure agility, the in-game mechanic might be a little weak... offering a max of -6CS to be hit and even with an Amazing agility you are only scoring that a relatively small percentage of the time.

I try to work with it, and read alot of karma expenditure into the various comicbook examples that can be found. Afterall, ever notice how villains of similar, say, agility, never pull off the kinds of things against heroes or groups of heroes that Spidey does. So, Spidey is "obviously" spending major karma in such instances.

So, yeah, I work with the existing dodge rule.... you receive anywhere from a -2Cs to -6CS to be hit.... if that Shifts an opponents chance to hit below Shift 0 the attack is deemed impossible.... and any Green hit on a dodging character counts as a mere graze, shifting the damage of the attack down by 1/2 the dodge modifier, ie. -1CS to -3Cs damage.

I have done away with the Evade function (making dodge all-encompassing), but if one uses that they might allow Agility to be used in place of fighting.

I personally think that Thor, Cap or Bats would have an easier time tagging Spidey than is being presumed, given that they would be throwing blows with no real intention of tagging Spidey with them, but rather to dicate Spidey's movements and consequently set up a true blow that will land and that Spidey will walk right into.

Of course, if Spider-man just wants to stay out of arm's reach, that should be an easy enough task for him, no doubt. But once he enters melee, his speed is going to count for far less.

By my Dodging system above Spidey would still be reducing Cap's Fighting by an average of -4CS down to Good (+ Martial Arts B), with Cap averaging mostly glancing blows that would reduce his damage by an average of -2CS... thus giving Spidey a sizeable advantage if he can slip in your odd multiple combat action.

If Spidey throws some karma into his dodges against Cap, which he probably should, he'll be bring Cap all the way down to Poor Figthing (+ martial arts B)!!! Thats pretty damn good against a fighter that could make Mayweather seem slow and clumsy!!!

Against your average street-thug (F- Ty, A - Ty, S - Pr, E - Pr), Spidey would on average be untouchable as a Yellow dodge would reduce the thugs fighting rank to less than Shift 0. Even with a Green result the thug is going to ahve his Figthing reduced to Feeble, and will be lucky to hit let alone score a glancing blow.

Dealing with the speedster is much easier as the rank of their speed can be used in place of agility for dodging and fighting for evading, while maintaining a heightened level of in-combat speed provides a fairly significant modifier of its own... which would stack with any dodge bonus.... and still be in effect if one was on the offensive.

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Powersurge (history, pics) [www.classicmarvel.com]

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"You just decided *all by yourselves* that you are the Earth's protectors. And that you, and *only* you, not your teammates or family, are trustworthy enough to include in the process..."

T'Challa, The New Avengers: Illuminati 1

I hear what you're saying, but the fact of the matter is that the -CS mechanic doesn't take into account how much more effective a person would be a attacking and defending. The faster fighter isn't just harder to hit; he also is much harder to defend against.

This reality isn't at all covered by the Fighting Stat. Speedballs should get a greater advantage in defense, agreed (and although I respect your opinion, in my own playing the -CS method doesn't usually make a great deal of difference), but also should get a greater advantage in offense as well. The mechanic in MURPG doesn't seem to really reward Agility as much as it should, either offensively or defensively.

The kind of speed that Spider Man has, also, I think is a little hard to imagine. The idea of hitting to put the other guy in a position to be hit, not necessarily to make contact, makes sense in real life. Good fighters do it all the time, especially to guys with greater speed. But the speed and reaction-time difference here is a lot greater, IMHO. Spider-Man is as much greater than Cap & Batman than an adult would be to a young child. I would be closer to Mayweather (and I assure you, I'm not even close) than either of those two would be to Spider-Man. And I guarantee that I doubt I could lay a hand on Mayweather unless he let me.

I know, it's all a suspension of disbelief, but this guy can dodge machine-gun fire! He's dodged Electro's electrical discharge blasts that move at the speed of light. He's got speed way way beyond the characters we're talking about, but the -CS method, imho, doesn't really do it justice.

I don't know. I'm willing to give it another try with my group and see, but one reason I've been disappointed in it is that speed characters really can't make good use of their Agility stat unless they are using thrown weapons.

I agree. Here was my idea for a Dodge revamp. Let me know what you think, civet.

[www.classicmarvel.com]





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/29/2008 09:33PM by Punstarr.

Oh man..... I opened up a ‘Can of Worms’

I fully agree with Punstarr and Powersurge about the Accuracy and 'Skill' of Fighting -=VS=- Agility…..


I’m not trying to remove Merit from the Character’s Agility (Or Strength or Endurance or RIP)

But I've always perceived the 'Fighting' Rank as a combo ability of the other 6 Attributes (ASERIP)…. And the 'Fighting' Rank as being VERY VERY specific to 'Violence' and 'Combat' and using offensive FEATS as a form of defense.

Where as Agility, Strength, and Endurance are more for overall general abilities.

And if the Agility, Strength, or Endurance are better than Fighting, use them as the FEAT....





I’ve also used this house rule for years..... ‘Hit Power’ or the Damage inflicted by a Character while using his body as the Primary Weapon is derived from an Average between Agility and Strength....... Fighting is how well the Attack connects or ‘Digs’ in......

Strong Characters like Hulk roll a connecting “Fighting” FEAT on the RM:30 Rank with GD:10 Agility and UN:100 Strength behind it:

(10 + 100 = 110..... 110 / 2 = 55.... Add [1CS] to Impact for each Color Range above White or Green)

Hulk’s Damage starts at AM:55 with a Green FEAT or a Connecting White FEAT........ MN:75 with Yellow........... UN:100 with a RED........ And SX:150 with Karma......... (But Damage is a little lower on that expanded table I use)

However, most Players will figure out real quick Hulk (and similar characters) does Greater Damage with a Grab, Grapple, or Wrestling move, which relies more upon sheer “Strength”...... So use “Strength” for the FEAT.



Quick Characters like Spider-Man roll a connecting “Fighting” FEAT on the RM:30 Rank with AM:50 Agility and IN:40 Strength behind it:

His Damage starts at IN:45 (or Spectacular 45 on that expanded table) with a Green FEAT or a Connecting White FEAT........ AM:50 with Yellow........... MN:75 with a RED........ And UN:100 with Karma...........

And for Quick Characters more damage is inflicted with a quick ‘Strike’ rather than a strong ‘Grapple’.



Skilled Characters such as Cap,n’ America roll a connecting “Fighting” FEAT on the AM:50 Rank with IN:40 Agility and EX:20 Strength behind it......

His Damage starts at RM:30 with a Green FEAT or a Connecting White FEAT........ IN:40 with Yellow........... AM:50 with a RED........ And MN:75 with Karma...........

This is also why I use the expanded Table... It’s Little Too Powerful on the old Table and Grid...

BUT, Talented “Fighters” are also allowed Multiple Hits in a single game round....... Meaning Cap’n’America just opened a Flurry ‘CAN ‘O’ WHOOP-AZZ’ with a Yellow or RED and made 2 to 5 Grappling and Striking hits on his opponent with each Impact in a various ranges from GD:10 up to RM:30.....

Thus making a Single FEAT roll something like: Left, Right, Left, Head-Lock and finish with a ‘NUGGY’...

(5 Actions on AM:50 Fighting... Drop the Zero)



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I see the logic of what you're saying. Just as the speedster can react to an attack with lightning speed, so to can he attack at lightning speed... giving the defender little to no time to react defensievely. Essentially the defender is a stationary target, caught flat on his feet for all intents and purposes.

That does seem worthy of some form of to-hit bonus.... maybe subbing the power rank for the Figthing rank for purposes of striking???

As for speedsters and dodging; simply by moving 10 areas/round or faster a character is -4CS to be hit!!!

So, an attack is launched at a speedster taking no defensive measures other than moving fast. The attack is launched with Amazing accuracy, but the speedsters quickness brings that down from Am (75%) to Good (55%).

A weak dodge (Green, - 2CS) ) would bring that down further to Poor (45%). A moderate dodge (Yellow, -4CS) would bring it down to Shift 0 (35%), and a strong dodge (-6CS) would move it off the charts... which according to the tweak I suggested in a previous post would make the chance to hit impossible (or perhaps 01% if prefered).

Not trying to convert you, but if you have a speedster that is not opening himself up to a counter by attacking himself, and is concentrating on supreme defense then even an attack of Unearthly accuracy is being reduced to Shift 0 accuracy!!! That is incredibly significant. Factor in my "graze" house rule to boot, and that Unearthly accuracy is only going to land a solid, bullseye attack 05% of the time.

Thats UNEARTHLY accurracy! Reduced to misses and grazes.

As for Spidey; I think that too much is made out of his reaction time sometimes, and too little at other times, so its hard to judge where he stands. Sure, he can dodge gunfire and energy blasts, but guys like Kraven and Doc Oc can tag him in a fight nevertheless.

------------------------------------------------
Powersurge (history, pics) [www.classicmarvel.com]

------------------------------------------------
Morningstar (campaign journal) [www.classicmarvel.com]

------------------------------------------------

"You just decided *all by yourselves* that you are the Earth's protectors. And that you, and *only* you, not your teammates or family, are trustworthy enough to include in the process..."

T'Challa, The New Avengers: Illuminati 1

Good analysis. You've certainly sold the dodge rule well, especially with your tweaks.

In regard to the contradictions in Spiderman's speed in comics, I think it's basically a comic writers' convention that the characters are just fast enough during any issue (or cartoon, in the case of the various television series) to make their situation just challenging enough to be interesting, without any real regard for a great deal of consistency from one story to another.

If Spiderman can truly dodge machine gun bursts and electrical blasts moving at the speed of light, then neither Doc Ock nor Kraven should ever be able to lay a hand on him. Neither of them move as fast as a bullet, let alone the speed of light. However, it would be a pretty boring story if SM just dodges every attempt then knocks them out in one punch. In game stats, especially, Doc Ock isn't really a challenge at all. Kraven is only barely more so.

Superman would be the worst character for this. In one issue or story he's shown as being basically as fast as the Flash, as well as invulnerable, and then in another issue the Toyman is giving him trouble! What the heck is that? He should have the Toyman stripped of gadgets and in jail within two panels (or ten seconds, in the case of an animated cartoon).

Or look at Kryptonite in the stories. A rock comes out, Superman is down to his knees. In game terms, though, as soon as Superman sees the rock he can be 10 areas away before the opponent (most of them) can move. Heat vision, no more kryptonite. Of course, there's no drama, but in game terms, quite possible.

This was easier before things like the Marvel Universe Guide (and the DC universe equivalent). How strong was the Hulk before this? No one really knew (except in relative terms to the rest of the MU characters). We readers could just assume he was really really strong. There was no concept of "class 100" strength, or whatever. So he could be as strong as would make a story interesting, but no stronger.

Early on, bullets hurt Hulk, but later, tank shells bounce off. What?

Thanks for your comments. Definitely food for thought.

I like it. It's simple and uses the existing game mechanics in a very intuitive way. I'd have to playtest it to see how it works.

I've also come across two variants of your idea:

1. Same roll, but the dodging character's colors refer to a color rather than a column shift. Red is 3 color shifts (red becomes a fumble), yellow is 2 (red becomes a miss, yellow a fumble), and green (red becomes a yellow, yellow becomes a green, etc.)

2. Shift columns of the attackers roll based on the difference in Agility. So the Hulk (10) trying to hit a dodging Spider-Man (50) has 4 column shifts to the left, to Shift 0 (or impossible, I guess, depending on if you use that tweak). Thor would roll Feeble.

They seem to favor the defender more, maybe a little too much. I'm not sure.

Thanks for your comments.

I like that house rule, although it primarily differentiates offensively rather than defensively, but still pretty cool.

The idea of simply using the Stat as a FEAT instead of Fighting, depending on the circumstances, also makes sense.

Our group is pretty cool, in that our Judge tries not for "realism," per se, but for "comic realism." All the battles have to seem like a comic book. Anything in the mechanics that helps this is allowed, within reason. So, for example, a gaming event might go like this.

Judge: Spider-Man, you see Kraven, what do you do?

Player: I hit him.

Judge: Jeez, you just hit him? Don't you have any imagination? What do you do? How? Just a roundhouse swing?

Player (chagrined): Uh, I . . . I leap to the ceiling, push off with my hands back down to the ground and land with both feet in his gut, then a 540 kick.

Judge: Okay, enough, don't hurt yourself. That seems like an Agility FEAT. It's contested by his Agility, so you get a +CS [our mechanic, but there are others]

or

Judge: Okay, Hulk, Thor is lying on the ground in front of you, having been slammed by your last attack.

Player: I hit him.

Judge: Jeez, this again? How? You're the Hulk, now, remember.

Player: Uh, I run up and soccer kick him in the face. I try to punt his body into a nearby building.

Judge: I like it. Okay, it's a Fighting FEAT, even if it's dirty fighting, I think Thor's probably seen it before. Make a Fighting FEAT [We don't use CS modifiers for Fighting FEATS, for some reason. Maybe we should]

Thanks for your thoughts.