Hulk's Adrenalin Surge

I just know the Hulk-philes are going to flame me for this, but...

Why does Hulk get a +CS in Fighting from his Adrenalin Surge? Fighting is the one stat that seems skill-based, and it doesn't seem as if he gets any better when he's mad in the comics. On the contrary, usually he gets worse, but his strength and hitting power go up so fast it usually doesn't make a difference.

Of course, no one is going to agree to a -CS in Fighting (although I think it would make some sense), but it seems at least plausible that his Strength and Endurance, not his Strength and Fighting, would be the stats to increase. Since no one's going to let his Fighting stat drop, at least leave it the same.

I would allow him to CS, but only for one stat at a time, and with the caveat that both stats have to increase at the same rate. So, the first surge would give him +1 CS to Strength, the second turn he had a surge would give him +1 CS to Endurance, and back again, and so on.

Also, it would make sense to have the increased "health" be available to him, maybe after his actual health reached 0, with the caveat that he would collapse and transform back to Banner (if players do that) after a battle if his actual health had reached 0.

As per the old MU handbook, why not, then, let his Strength start at Mons75? With the surge, he gets up pretty quickly, and with his Strength and Endurance stat slowly increasing, he would get pretty crazy pretty quick. Unless you took him out very quickly and early, beating him down will be almost impossible, which reflects the comics.

Having his Regen increase with the the Adrenaline Surge may or may not make much difference, depending on how you handle Regen. Also, if his other Stats drop back to "normal" after the battle, if his Regen drops back to normal, it wouldn't really have much effect unless you used the 1/10 Regen rank / turn rule. I am coming around to believing that this is a little too crazy a healing rate, so I'm not sure the Regen should be effective. Maybe a 1 time 1/10 Regen right after the battle at the Surge level? I don't know.

So I would be in favor of putting Hulk's initial stats at:

Fighting Remarkable
Agility Good
Strength Monstrous
Endurance Monstrous
Reason Feeble
Intuition Typical
Psyche Remarkable

Health 190
Karma 38
Resources Feeble
Popularity -10/10

But, with the Adrenalin Surge, his max stats could look like:

Fighting Remarkable
Agility Good
Strength Shift Z
Endurance Shift Z
Reason Feeble
Intuition Typical
Psyche Remarkable

Health 190 (850 "Rage health" or whatever you call it)
Karma 38
Resources Feeble
Popularity -10/10

What do you think?

FYI, I'm a huge fan of both Thor and the Hulk. I'm not interested in making them "weak," (which they really aren't, regardless), but more interesting to play and have in a campaign.

Oh, has anyone noticed that Hercules has Incr Fighting stat on Ben Reilly's site? Not that I object, but it's curious since Thor has his usual Unearthly.

Comments?

I agree absolutely 100% that there is no way that Hulk is becoming a better fighter the angrier he gets. The idea is entirely contrary.

I've long given the Hulk stat shifts to his strength and endurance. I generally don't play the Hulk with a true regeneration power, as I think that the added health from the stat shifts reflect this without need for a power.

As for why someone might have placed Hercs fighting at a lower class than Thor's; perhaps because Herc was originally mortal and thus presumably hasn't been around for as long and/or lacks the full potential of full godhood??? I would tend to think that Herc is still worthy of at least a Mn Fighting. Afterall, the ancient Greeks were practicing Mixed Martial Arts millenia before the term was ever coined and the Spartans in particular (who saw Herc as their progenitor??) were warriors amongst warriors.

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Maybe his initial fighting is too high, come to think of it. I could see it being at Good (10), which would put him initially at:

Fighting Good
Agility Good
Strength Monstrous
Endurance Monstrous
Reason Feeble
Intuition Typical
Psyche Remarkable

Health 170
Karma 38
Resources Feeble
Popularity -10/10

It's not as if he's a great fighter. He's effective because he's tough and strong and gets stronger as the fight goes on.

Just food for thought, anyhow.

Actually he became quite adept at fighting after fighting in the gladiator pits for so long during Planet Hulk.

Which was interesting as he kept using weapons and armor long after he'd recovered all his lost power and then some and no longer needed a weapon or the armor. Also learned some military tactics and Leadership.

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All right, granted that his present Fighting stat of Rem is reasonable given the events of WWH, why should the stat as a whole go up when he has an adrenaline surge? It makes no sense.

Why should his Strength and Endurance go up? Makes as much sense as anything else when we're talking comics. His mind undergoes some kind of neural enhancement that improves his fighting along with his strength.

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His strength and endurance go up because surges of adreniline and the corresponding release of various chemicals in the mind produce natural enhancements to strength and toughness. Thats what adreniline does.

Rage on the otherhand doesn't make one a better fighter... which is why many a professional fighter will try to inpsire anger in their opponent. No matter the level skill while relatively calm and in control, anger simplifies one's tactics down to a "Hulk smash" level, appropriately enough. The attacks are straightforward, headlong and entirely predictable. Thats what rage does.

Besides the entire notion that Hulk becomes more adept at fighting as he gets angrier is an abitrary matter of the game that has no basis in the comics. No where does it ever say in the comics, "the madder Hulk gets, the stronger Hulk's kung-fu gets!!!"

I think that Ex to Rm is a fair fighting ability to an enraged Hulk, comparable to the fiercest of predatory animals.

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We always gave him strength and endurance also never fighting. plus I'm not sure but can the HULK based on the TSR stats actually go up to Shift -Z ( 500 ) Fighting????

no way can he fight that good because he rages-out.

I can see why Hulk’s ‘Fighting’ would go up with his Strength....

With hands and feet the size of a Mack Truck he’d probably get a few extra points to ‘Fighting’...... Plus the sheer Brute Force behind his Striking ability.......

But normally Hulk will resort to Grappling or ‘Gorilla’ slaps and Biting....... For every 4 Ranks of “Strength” increase, Hulk would get 1 Rank of “Fighting” increase, just for Sheer “Power”

Hulk gets RM:30 Fighting as an Automatic Upgrade due to his Super Strength...... Almost all the Comic Characters who have Super Strength, or Agility, and even Endurance also have “RM:30” Fighting as a default....... Yet those Characters are illustrated with Zero experience in Melee Violence.....



Most Players and GMs have varying perceptions about what the “Fighting Rank” is actually capable of performing for your Character....

Most Player see 4 Physical (Athletic) Attributes; And 3 Mental (Psychological) attributes..... The traditional “FASERIP”

Why ‘4’ and ‘3’???....... Shouldn’t the ‘Mind’ have 4 Attributes as well????..... Just slam it down V8 Style..

But consider this...... look at the FASERIP as “ASE and RIP”.... 3 and 3....... And the “Fighting” Rank is a Special Skill of how well the Character uses ALL 6 Attributes Combined for Violent behavior.....

This is also why Normal Humans can achieve AM:50 “Fighting”.... Yet “ASE and RIP” are nearly Peak Human at EX:20 to RM:30......

Why can the “Fighting” Rank get so powerful for Normal Humans???

Because the “Fighting” rank has a much broader range of actions than just Hand to Hand Combat....

For my Table Games, The “Fighting” Rank serves your character for just about ANY thing your Character touches..... You can Shoot, Drive, Throw, Ski, Swim, Run, Climb, Fight, Block, Attack, Defend, or just about ANY direct ‘Combat’ action can be handled on the “Fighting” Rank........... Even many range attacks.

It’s why Cap’n’ America or Wolverine need a PLUS Shift on their Agility or Strength or Endurance for just about every action they may take..... When the “Fighting” Rank is right there, solidified as a single term.

“Sheer Skill -=VS=- Brute Power”

The Hulk lacks “Skill”...... But He has so much Power it’s easier for him to utilize direct “Power”...

The Same goes for “Speed” Characters...... They generally have Sheer Power, but lack “Skill”

Cap’n’ America, Wolverine, Punisher, Bat-Man, even Thor.... They have more “Skill” rather than “Power”.



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That's a great point. So, Fighting as a stat represents not someone's "skill" at doing things, but rather a measure of how effective someone is at pulling things off based on their physical ability. Someone who can lift more than a thousand times their own body-weight can actually pull off some of the crazy stunts we see in comics whether or not they've every actually trained.

I like your analysis of the stats, i.e., that Fighting encompasses the other six attributes into one score. It has a simple elegance, and explains why, as you've said, Normal Humans can achieve such a high rank in it with lower stats.

It also explains why guys like Thor & Herc have such high Fighting stats, because they've developed their skills at the same time as they've developed their attributes. Unlike the Hulk and Captain America, not to mention Spider-man, Thor and Herc have not had to relearn how to move based on vastly increased physical stats.

Comic artists and writers make the Hulk and Thing look and move ponderously, because they look big in human terms, but in fact, since they can actually lift more than a thousand times their own body-weight, they would be anything but.

Nothing in nature at human scale has that kind of proportional physical power, so we don't know how they'd move, exactly, but physically they should have the capacity to excel the most graceful human athlete in what their bodies can do.

Not to mention that their bodies have been modified to withstand the added stress and rigor of their abilities. A normal man who could leap like Spider Man would die from the impact of landing, or at least break his legs.

I like your analysis. The only thing I would say in comic terms is the Fighting stat badly underestimates the importance of the Agility stat.

The Agility stat represents a broad range of activities that are neurologically and physically distinct, including, but not limited to, throwing accuracy, reaction speed, timing, reflexes, and so on. All the ASE stats are like that, of course; I remember the old Stan Lee Spider-man Comics often used the term "Spider-strength" to refer to anything up to and including endurance (both muscular and cardiovascular) and physical toughness, not simply strength.

The problem with Fighting as a stat is that it implies that Thor and Captain America could beat the holy heck out of Spider man without raising a sweat. In fact, in comic terms, I'm not sure either guy could lay a hand on Spider-man if he wasn't deciding to trade punches.

Clearly, as you've stated, some characters stress some attributes more than others, and have a different balance of their use of speed, power, strength, endurance, etc. to come up with their Fighting Stat. This would suggest that Spider-Man's fighting skill, at least defensively, ought to be very high indeed because in comics he is very effective based on speed, reaction time, and agility, not to mention physical power.

There should probably be some way characters can interact physically that takes the relative agility difference into account, which does not seem to be the case with the Fighting stat as it's described.

In fact, everyone's Fighting stat is linked to a different proportion of the ASERIP abilities, as you've noted. There must be some way to relate this in game terms if the relative differences in one or more stat is relevant to the type of combat occurring...

That may be a game mechanic problem, though, more than a conceptual one.

My friend, your post was very insightful, and a pleasure to read.

This also explains the fallacy of some of the analyses being done on the Fighting stat (including my own). It makes no sense to try to analyze the Fighting stat apart from the physical abilities (i.e., what if Thor had the same strength as Captain America, who would win a fight, etc.) because it's so based on them. The Hulk has the same Fighting technique as Bruce Banner, but his effectiveness (Fighting stat) is so much higher because his physical attributes are so much greater. If you take away they physical attributes of the heavy hitters (Thor, Thing, Hulk, etc.) their Fighting stat would probably decrease proportionally. Thor would still be high because he's had the most combat training and experience, followed by the Thing and then Hulk.

Again, brilliant post, TankerAce. Definitely made me think.

Actually the Thing's fighting stat DOES drop when you take away his powers (just check his alter-ego and compare to his Thing form, something like a 3CS drop). The Hulk though doesn't fight like Banner does; as a true example of Multiple Personality Disorder he has his own Fighting attribute and style independent of Banner (much like RL versions can have totally different allergies and quirks). This is why during Planet Hulk he still proved so powerful and great a fighter even when he was seriously depleted in strength and durability. If anything by spending time required to depend on his fighting ability more and strength less he was forced to seriously advance his Fighting rank and learning Martial Arts and Weapon skills that he kept after recovering.

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I take your point, but we may be discussing two different things: the fighting skill as depicted in comics, and the Fighting STAT used the MURPG.

Hulk's fighting skills would of course have improved after WWH, that much is intuitively clear. Apart from his physical gifts, his techniques would be better. I agree with that.

His Fighting Stat would likewise improve based on the improvement of his technical fighting skills, but overall the Fighting Stat is not limited, at least in Tanker's reading (and his view has certainly provoked a lot of thought on my part) to simply his technical skills, but the entire synergy of his physical abilities and experience, more than the sum total of his physical and mental stats.

It's a different way to look at the Fighting STAT in the game. I agree with you about the fighting skills in the comics, but that's not precisely what we were discussing.

The point though is that Brute Strength and Endurance should not increase one's chances of hitting one's target. If that were the case, Juggernaut would hit Spider-Man with every punch. In this RPG, the Fighting stat is a measure of accuracy... essentially, all Fighting is used for is to determine whether you hit your target in hand to hand combat, and to give you extra Health. So in that regard, I do not agree with Tanker's take on Fighting. Being big and strong does not mean you'll hit more often.

Personally I think Agility should factor into how rolling to hit works. Look at White-Wolf's system, for example. In that system, you roll your Dexterity plus Melee or Brawl in order to hit. It makes sense. Accuracy? Agility should factor in. Maybe a derived Fighting attribute based on Agility and something else...

In comics terms, I would of course agree with you, which is why I posted the topic; if the Fighting stat from the game measures merely your skills (abstractly) in hand-to-hand, apart from your physical abilities, then it shouldn't change as Hulk's Strength goes up.

However, if the Fighting stat represents a more inchoate and general effectiveness, I can see the argument that the Hulk might get better at hitting the other guy if he were, for example, ignoring his defense, or other factors that the Fighting stat represents other than just hand-to-hand skill.

I like your other point, and I can't help but wonder if a house rule could go somewhere with it. Your point about is Agility is well-taken.

I'll go further (just thinking on paper, here). If the Fighting stat represents a characters ability to hit the other guy in a "slugfest," "step up to scratch," "let's get it on" sort of contest, it might, strictly speaking, not apply to other sorts of combat situations.

For example, if Spider Man actually did square up against Juggernaut and traded punches with him, Juggernaut probably could hit him as long as Spider Man kept both feet on the ground and just sort of bobbed and weaved. Eventually Juggernaut could tag him that way.

Of course, Spider Man wouldn't fight Juggernaut that way. In fact, he rarely fights anyone that way unless he has a huge physical advantage over them. Usually he's bouncing of walls, doing all sorts of crazy acrobatics and hitting people with both feet after hand-vaulting down from the ceiling, and other such maneuvers.

So maybe Spider-Man shouldn't use his Fighting stat unless the situation demands it. Maybe he should be using the Agility stat, and maybe the judge should force his opponent to make a (contested) Agility feat roll to even hit Spider Man, adjusted for the differences in their Agility.

For example, if Thor is fighting Spider-man, Spider-Man (because of his fighting style) doesn't use Fighting; he would use Agility, and would force Thor to make an Agility FEAT against his own, in some sort of contest roll, to actually hit Spider-Man.

If the adjustment were realistic enough (column shifts, or maybe a simple modifier of -30 to reflect their relative Agilities), Thor would be forced to use area attacks and so on to actually damage Spider Man. This would comport with comic book "reality," it seems to me.

Or maybe have characters have different Fighting stats based on different attributes depending on the situation (although this takes role-playing, and may be less easy to apply mechanically).

I don't know. Good thought, and one I've had for awhile. Ideas?

I don't think that Spider-man's agility, speed and reflexes would prove to be that much of a problem for a warrior the calibre of Thor, Captain America or Batman. Spidey is still a two -dimensional, reactionary fighter, and Thor has the experience and technical expertise to set Spidey up, predict his movements, and utilize angles to cut down on Parker's superior speed.

The way I use dodge Thor would still have a difficult time landing a *solid* blow on Spidey, but then, he's Thor so, really, how solid would it have to be?

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Thor wouldn't really be making any use of his Fighting ability against Spider-man anyway, he'd use his weather and air control to create conditions under which Spider-man's Agility and Danger Sense would be useless. Just like against Iron Man while he gave him a smack with Mjolnir (and probably thinking him unworthy of being touched by the hammer) he used an EMP to defeat Stark rather than waste time beating him into the ground.

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I would tend to agree with Tanker that Fighting skill is somewhat reliant in strength in other areas... a synergistic combination of the ASERIP.

However, there is always the cap provided by innate aptitude... which is what I think the Figthing score is the primary measure of. It is not reliant on strength of body, or strength of tehnique.... it is pure, innate physical problem-solving ability in which the combatant might not be trained but performs schooled techniques just because they seem like the right thing to do.

Certainly if you take someone that is Feeble ranked in their ASERIP, and you make them stronger, more aware and attentive, more certain in their actions, more coordinated, etc. that will improve their raw fighting ability or, more accurately, enable them to *tap their full natural fighting potential*... though it would be a fair assumption that if the ASE stats are so low to begin with it's 'cause there is little to no natural physical aptitude. Anyway, you can strengthen the Fighting stat via the physical conditioning/enhancement and the learning of various martial techniques (as reflected in the talents), but natural aptitude remains relatively constant such that it will not significantly increase after a certain point no matter how much you improve the ASERIP or the technique of the combatant.

Thus why there are some very big men in the world, and people holding blackbelts in this or that martial art, who nevertheless aren't anywhere near as good at fighting as one might expect given their size and/or degree of "martial" achievement.... while in contrast there are some smaller men, who have never had the oppurtunity to benefit from a martial tradition who can nevertheless compete at a relatively high level.

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Okay, we're getting a little far afield.

In human terms, the faster fighter can lose to the more-skilled fighter. That's true.

In comic terms, though, Spider Man can actually dodge machine-gun fire. That's speed way above human norm.

If Spider man fought either Batman or Captain America in a ring, "put up your dooks" fashion, then I can see them being able to counter his speed.

His speed in comic book terms, though, isn't just hand- and foot-speed, but his supernatural agility.

Here's a character that can jump thirty feet in the air and stick to the wall of a building in the time it would take Batman to pull out a Batarang, or for Cap to get his shield out. He can be two areas away in game terms before Batman, Cap or Thor can move one.

That's "comic book" high agility. You can't compare that kind of movement ability to human norm. The difference between Spiderman and Cap is way, way greater than the difference between, say, Ricky Hatton and Floyd Mayweather Junior. Spider-man, in comic terms, is in another class of speed and agility.

Thor isn't even as fast in game terms as either Cap or Batman.

Yes, Thor would kill Spiderman. In any number of ways. The only blow in that fight would be the first and last one landed by Thor. Mjolnir would plow through Spiderman's body in a mist of blood and an explosion of limbs and entrails. No contest.

Or a lightning bolt would kill him. Whatever. I wasn't suggesting Spider Man could beat Thor.

The point I was making, though was what if Thor wanted to put Spider Man out, by hand, and Spider Man wasn't having any? The classic Spiderman knew all about Thor, and wouldn't get near him. Even the Ultimate Spiderman could, presumably, sense the waves of power emanating from Thor's body and know enough to stay the f*** away from him.

How would Thor (apart from the wind and weather powers of Mjolnir as well as his innate ones) get his hands on Spiderman?

In game mechanics, and this was the point I was making, pretty easily, because Agility is not adequately addressed in the game. The game doesn't do a justice to the defensive difficulties with trying to hit or grab a character who is that much faster and more agile than the attacker.

In comic terms, Thor would have a very hard time laying a hand on Spiderman. Captain America and Batman would find it impossible, if Spiderman were determined to stay away.

How can groups adequately use the MURPG mechanic differently to take this into account?

That was really my query.

In a fight in the comics, just to get this out of the way and forestall any more debate, I don't think Spiderman could beat either Cap, Batman, or Thor.

But how do you guys deal with Agility, and with the speed-ball characters in general? Because just using the Fighting stat wouldn't do justice to the speedballs in the comics world.