WWHulk?

You know, for some reason I suddenly got an impression of the old "Rock'em Sock'em Robots" game. :)

You always have the '<insert name here> is the most powerful their is' crowd pumping up artificially their favorite, and the flipside always going '<insert name here> can't possibly be that powerful' and artificially weakening another character. They'll never agree with the listed stats and try and weaken or pump them up depending on their opinion.

Meanwhile on the nature of the Hulk's strength the original Green hulk's 'rest state' strength was around Amazing/Monstrous, as when he was calm he could only lift around 70 tons, although he could easily motivate into the 100 ton range without difficulty. Anything higher requires his raging state to achieve. That being his write-up from the original Officially published material before Marvel got onto this lame, crappy power bar stuff.

Well I stand by Spider-man's beating Firelord, as he's got a tenacity and capacity for combat he rarely shows except when pushed to his absolute limits and his full spider-instincts take over and he's no longer holding back.

Well given your other thread Graviton would be quite useful against the Hulk, he could handle conflict with Thor after all, and Magneto would certainly be helpful, especially paired up with Graviton. I'm not sure how useful Rogue would be, since given the Hulk's state even if she could get in close enough to try and drain his power she could probably draw off enough to match his OLD stats and he'd still be powered up, and in the meantime she'd be running around rampaging until it wore off.

Of course considering X-ray was able to beat the hulk by reverting him to Banner with Gamma-Negative rays he could potentially at least weaken his current form with them. But being a 'smart' hulk the current version would remember him and how he was beaten that time.

Spiderman beating firelord was among the worst comics of all time! Show me where it lists hulk ever at having amaz. to monst. str barring his joe fixit days.

No, Squirrel Girl was worse. *Laughs*

Okay you got me there:-)

muthal the cursed Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Show me where it lists hulk
> ever at having amaz. to monst. str barring his joe
> fixit days.

Agreed, I'd like to see such stats myself of Green Hulk ever having Am-Mn Strength at rest.

Nightmask Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Meanwhile on the nature of the Hulk's strength the
> original Green hulk's 'rest state' strength was
> around Amazing/Monstrous, as when he was calm he
> could only lift around 70 tons, although he could
> easily motivate into the 100 ton range without
> difficulty. Anything higher requires his raging
> state to achieve. That being his write-up from
> the original Officially published material before
> Marvel got onto this lame, crappy power bar stuff.

Does that oriignal Officially published material have a title so that I may view this version of Hulk you speak of?



flam-ing.
-noun

1. Computer Slang. an angry, critical, or disparaging electronic message, as an e-mail or newsgroup post.
-verb (used without object)

2. Computer Slang. to send an angry, critical, or disparaging electronic message.
-verb (used with object)

3. Computer Slang. to insult or criticize angrily in an electronic message.
-Verb phrase

4. *Flaming, flamer* and *flamboyant* are potentially pejorative adjectives for a gay man or LGBT person whose behavior is reflected in a stereotypical flamboyancy, manner or style (see also gay culture and camp) but also refers to anyone seen as showy, outrageous, eccentric or unique stylistically

Quoting from the Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe: Deluxe Edition, Volume 2 Number 5, listed release date April 1986:

The Hulk possesses superhuman strength of the Class 100 level, enabling him to lift (press) in excess of 100 tons. The Hulk only attains this strength level when enraged. In a totally calm state his functional strength is significantly less, perhaps in the 70 ton range.

Also the original handbook lists Thor as Superhuman Class 95 for Strength and NOT Superhuman Class 100.

Nightmask Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Quoting from the Official Handbook of the Marvel
> Universe: Deluxe Edition, Volume 2 Number 5,
> listed release date April 1986:
>
> The Hulk possesses superhuman strength of the
> Class 100 level, enabling him to lift (press) in
> excess of 100 tons. The Hulk only attains this
> strength level when enraged. In a totally calm
> state his functional strength is significantly
> less, perhaps in the 70 ton range.
>
> Also the original handbook lists Thor as
> Superhuman Class 95 for Strength and NOT
> Superhuman Class 100.

Okay, I found "a" book on [books.thekneeslider.com] but it's published in 4-14-2006 some of the four volume books were published in March, all as a reprint of the outdated 1986 book, but what isn't outdated with Marvel anyways, true? I'll admit I've never heard of this book nor it's version of stat classification, obviously. It seems to have positive reviews as a encyclopedia or as a comic book guidline and I believe I'll look into those books myself just for kicks. Doesn't mean I'll agree with it though. Everyones entitled to their own opinions.

Question is, Is this book a good referrence for the MSH System game mechanics applied to this forum or does it run on it's own version of game mechanics? Because it almost sounds like we are comparing two completely different game mechanics and definitions.

Like as if some hard core 2nd Edition AD&D player was trying to tell a 3.5 D&D player that his rules are all wrong, or vise versa... I can't see how that works in a debate. Because last I check, there were no Class 95 nor Class 100. But you did say it was a write-up from the original Officially published material of before Marvel got onto this lame, crappy power bar stuff. So I assume it's not game mechanic related then?



flam-ing.
-noun

1. Computer Slang. an angry, critical, or disparaging electronic message, as an e-mail or newsgroup post.
-verb (used without object)

2. Computer Slang. to send an angry, critical, or disparaging electronic message.
-verb (used with object)

3. Computer Slang. to insult or criticize angrily in an electronic message.
-Verb phrase

4. *Flaming, flamer* and *flamboyant* are potentially pejorative adjectives for a gay man or LGBT person whose behavior is reflected in a stereotypical flamboyancy, manner or style (see also gay culture and camp) but also refers to anyone seen as showy, outrageous, eccentric or unique stylistically




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/24/2007 11:12PM by RAGNARoK.

Well I've got the entire run of those first handbooks, both original and deluxe, and most of the 'leaflet' handbooks designed to be taken apart and kept in a standard 3-ring binder so you could organize the books as you desired as well as insert updated pages in their appropriate positions in the lineup. The handbook you show there though does happen to be from that run, which btw the covers were designed so you could lay out the books in such a way to create a huge single maxi-poster while completely open.

That being said the original handbooks attempted to put everything into as real-world terms as possible (talk about some detailed stuff covering the construction of Iron Man's red&gold armor for example, including using special microbes to create the chain-mail of the armor and coat the links).

So Venom is listed as pressing 11 tons, as his original physical strength as a human plus Spider-man's press of 10 tons reached 11 tons in strength. You get the precise level of force of Cyclops' eye beam in lbs per square inch (as it was at the time), and strength tended to come in a breakdown similar to what the MSH RPG uses. We just don't have a 40 ton strength plateau, we go from 10 to 50, and don't have a 95 ton range (Wonder Man was actually in the 90 ton when he came out until they decided to up him into the Class 100 range like they elevated Thor from class 95).

I think it's good material in general, if you know enough to convert the real-world physics to the game intensities/strengths. Solves a lot of trouble at least for strengths of characters at the time (although converting the Hulk's Body Resistance is problamatic and he's clearly NOT in the CL1000 range for resisting heat and cold, although is when it come to disease).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/25/2007 01:08AM by Nightmask.

Nightmask Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Well I've got the entire run of those first
> handbooks, both original and deluxe, and most of
> the 'leaflet' handbooks designed to be taken apart
> and kept in a standard 3-ring binder so you could
> organize the books as you desired as well as
> insert updated pages in their appropriate
> positions in the lineup. The handbook you show
> there though does happen to be from that run,
> which btw the covers were designed so you could
> lay out the books in such a way to create a huge
> single maxi-poster while completely open.
>
> That being said the original handbooks attempted
> to put everything into as real-world terms as
> possible (talk about some detailed stuff covering
> the construction of Iron Man's red&gold armor for
> example, including using special microbes to
> create the chain-mail of the armor and coat the
> links).
>
> So Venom is listed as pressing 11 tons, as his
> original physical strength as a human plus
> Spider-man's press of 10 tons reached 11 tons in
> strength. You get the precise level of force of
> Cyclops' eye beam in lbs per square inch (as it
> was at the time), and strength tended to come in a
> breakdown similar to what the MSH RPG uses. We
> just don't have a 40 ton strength plateau, we go
> from 10 to 50, and don't have a 95 ton range
> (Wonder Man was actually in the 90 ton when he
> came out until they decided to up him into the
> Class 100 range like they elevated Thor from class
> 95).
>
> I think it's good material in general, if you know
> enough to convert the real-world physics to the
> game intensities/strengths. Solves a lot of
> trouble at least for strengths of characters at
> the time (although converting the Hulk's Body
> Resistance is problamatic and he's clearly NOT in
> the CL1000 range for resisting heat and cold,
> although is when it come to disease).

Well, I'd like to thank you Nightmask for the reference to what looks to be a valuable source book. *LOL* I finally can see the source of my confusion that I suffer from when debating you at times. You are actually getting your reference from a real source. I use to think you were nuts and making stuff up and I would be like, *"What the hell are you talking about?"* My apologies man, *LOL*. You did throw me through a loop a few times in the past. Now I'm going to buy those books just so I can see where you are coming from better, also I'll be able to have an even sided debate with you and we'd both be on the same page. Right now I'm ignorant and I have no room to debate on what I don't understand at the moment in regards to those four volumes you speak of.



flam-ing.
-noun

1. Computer Slang. an angry, critical, or disparaging electronic message, as an e-mail or newsgroup post.
-verb (used without object)

2. Computer Slang. to send an angry, critical, or disparaging electronic message.
-verb (used with object)

3. Computer Slang. to insult or criticize angrily in an electronic message.
-Verb phrase

4. *Flaming, flamer* and *flamboyant* are potentially pejorative adjectives for a gay man or LGBT person whose behavior is reflected in a stereotypical flamboyancy, manner or style (see also gay culture and camp) but also refers to anyone seen as showy, outrageous, eccentric or unique stylistically

Well as a human being I might misremember on occasion but I don't make anything up or snatch stuff out of the air, that's the perview of the fanboy who never can be wrong. Winning on made-up material isn't a win at all, and it's not like medals or anything are going to the 'winner' of a debate.

Given the shoddy way comics have become that's why they've shifted to those cheap and not really informative power bar things, to push a toy and game line. Same deal as we saw when WOTC took over TSR and instead of bringing out an updated 2nd edition of the Oriental Adventures book or 3rd edition version later on they brought out that lame LOT5R version to push another of their game lines instead.

Check my reply to Ragnarok in regards to the Strength listing for the Hulk being in the Amazing/Monstrous range for the source material complete with quote from the mentioned material.

I agree, I prefer a friendly debate with friends in general, winners or losers have nothing to do with it. I have no issues of conceding if I'm wrong and I'm sure you are the same way. You are definitely no Fanboy nor are your materials made up.



flam-ing.
-noun

1. Computer Slang. an angry, critical, or disparaging electronic message, as an e-mail or newsgroup post.
-verb (used without object)

2. Computer Slang. to send an angry, critical, or disparaging electronic message.
-verb (used with object)

3. Computer Slang. to insult or criticize angrily in an electronic message.
-Verb phrase

4. *Flaming, flamer* and *flamboyant* are potentially pejorative adjectives for a gay man or LGBT person whose behavior is reflected in a stereotypical flamboyancy, manner or style (see also gay culture and camp) but also refers to anyone seen as showy, outrageous, eccentric or unique stylistically

Nothing beats the old OHtMU for character info. I used to have the whole thing and read every single entry (I used to read on it when I was bored, heh). So yeah, like Nightmask, much of my opinions of how things like strength works is based on those old volumes. Good stuff.

Well I'm less inclined to concede if someone's being particularly obnoxious, as all that effort to be so irritating on their part I see as encouragement to balk them at every turn so they might learn all reality doesn't bow to them, but I generally admit to being wrong when I'm wrong.

The occasional 'I must be right and you must be wrong and admit it' argument that flares up around here gets close to that, but they're generally in the area of things where the person demanding such is either outrageously wrong and blind to it or an issue too complex to have a simple right or wrong side to it.

Nice... I'd like to see somebody's version of the Warbound stats... Korg, Elloe, Hiroim, Brood, and Miek.

Any thoughts on this?

The whole fighting stat seems a little screwy to me, and always has been. Are we to believe that if Thor and Captain America had the same strength, that Thor would be more skilled than CA? That makes no sense at all. Absent his enormous physical superiority, Thor has never exhibited sophisticated fighting skills.

The other thing is that it would have to measure someone's fighting skills in the MU. I mean, it's not just a measure of how a character would do in the UFC, under those rules, for example. Spider Man would never fight like a UFC fighter, but most guys couldn't lay a hand on him because of his extraordinary agility.

I've never agreed with Thor and Herc having such high fighting stats. Fighting a long time might make you good against the types you've been facing, but unless you're regularly facing guys who are physically equal or better than you, your skills, per se, aren't going to be as great because you don't need them as much. Heavyweights wouldn't necessarily beat strawweights because they were more skilled, but because they are physically superior.

After WWH, I think having Hulk's stats go up makes sense, because he was forced to excel in arenas where everyone around him was at least equal (and usually superior) to him physically, and he had to adapt.

If his stats are at Amazing, I think Herc and Thor shouldn't be any higher (or even that high, frankly).

Just musing. Thoughts?

But Thor and Herc (well Thor at least) -are- regularly facing guys who are physically equal or better than them. Herc does it in Olympia and Thor does it in Asgard (before Asgard came to Earth that is). Just because you don't see every fight Thor has with every Troll doesn't mean it's not happening. As for why they can't portray Unearthly Fighting in the comics, think about this... how do comics portray really high fighting skills? They make it flamboyant, fast and Hollywood-ized. How do you show that with Thor? Answer? You can't. It's up to the reader to understand that when he swings his hammer, most things on Earth are going to be hit... he's that skilled and accurate. Come to think of it, I can think of few times he's ever missed with that freakin' hammer... that should show you the skill he's at.