Maestro

I have to say as a fan that Wolverine's healing factor has gone pretty overboard. I remember way in the first Wolverine limited series, expert swordsmen were actually a threat to him. One skilled unaugmented human (Shingen Harada) actually beat him up with a wooden sword, and almost killed him with a real one.

Contrast that with the "Enemy of the State" arc where Wolverine just charges literally hundreds of ninja warriors, and just mows through them, healing damage that they inflicted on him as fast as it was incurred. In the crossover "Conspiracy of Dunces," Wolverine is hit with a rocket from a rocket launcher that completely strips the flesh from his bones in the middle of his body. They put him in a bathtub, and he turns out perfectly fine. It makes him a little less interesting if he can heal from any conceivable godawful damage.

That having been said, I don't think the /10 per turn is quite that fast in game turns, but I tend to agree with Punstarr; if the rate is too high, lower the Regen rating (or healing factor, or whatever) so it makes a reasonable healing rate. Or have the rate be every ten turns, maybe (so Wolverine would heal at 5 points/minute), or even once/hr instead of only once/day as for characters without a healing factor.

I think having the rate be 1/10 the power rank, and have them heal it 1/hr would be a good compromise.

Going to a calculator wouldn't be that satisfying to me, personally.

I might add I was a Math minor in college, with a concentration in differential calculus. Numbers don't scare me, but I don't bring them out for fun, either.

Just my $.02.

I can't see how per turn healing can't be seen as too fast, when an average human is per day, or 14,400 turns to regain an Endurance rank's worth of health. It also worries me when so many seem to have such a rejection of math to work so hard to avoid even the limited math required with the UPB listing for regeneration. So-called time-saving steps aren't always a benefit, and a few extra minutes at most of effort to work out the answer should be encouraged instead of discouraged.

Rechecking I was a bit off in my memory on Wolverine's original rate, it was 10/hr, or 1 every six minutes which is still quite decent relative to normal humans and even people with extra-high Endurances but no other healing factor. Some characters you also haven't got a choice about doing the math with as even their original Marvel handbook write-ups supported the UPB version with the character in question (Luke Cage for example is specifically stated as healing three times faster than a normal human being, or Poor (3) rank Regeneration).

"A shared universe, like any fictional construct, hinges on suspension of disbelief. When continuity is tossed away, it tatters the construct. Undermines it."

-- Peter David

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I neither encourage nor discourage math. If someone enjoys it, as you obviously do, then I say go to it. For those who don't, I can understand it, and can see how they prefer a simpler calculation as 1/10 the power rank every turn, or minute, or hour, or whatever. If that makes a game treat the Regen/Healing factor as too high for your taste, don't play with a group that does it; stick with a group of like-minded individuals, and both you and they will have more fun.

There isn't anything inherently more virtuous about doing more math; if you enjoy it and others don't, I would resist the temptation to feel superior or be self-righteous about, if only because there are "different strokes for different folks."

The whole thing is a game, anyway, with approximations of comic book powers that aren't in the least realistic for the most part.

Now, conceptually, I do see your point, in that Wolverine healing 5 points of damage per game turn (6 seconds), or 1/30th of the total health, does seem too high, but in fact it probably accurately reflects how the comics now treat his healing factor. The Hulk's, too, for that matter. He's seen as healing damage so fast that injuries seal up behind any weapon that manages to pierce the skin. 1/10 per turn is actually a pretty accurate reflection of this.

You may object to the comics doing this sort of thing, and I would tend to agree, as it makes characters less interesting if nothing can damage them. You may object to the writers who have encouraged it as well, believing (as I do) that using the healing factor in such a way is a trifle lazy, and makes characters even less "human" (or at least human-scale) than they should be, and I would agree with you.

You shouldn't, however, object to players of the game who 1) may like the way the modern writers handle the healing factor of guys like Wolverine and Hulk, and/or 2) like a simple game mechanic that accurately reflects this. Nor is it helpful to put down people who don't happen to want to take out a calculator, whether or not the math is simple. The whole reason for house rules is for groups to play the way they want to play, not to put down those who want to play differently. I don't like Thor having such high Fighting stats, but if Punstarr were in my group, I would happily allow it with no objection, if he and the rest of my group meshed well otherwise, because such a technical difference wouldn't be enough for me to reject another fan of the game and/or the comics.

JMHO.

Thank you for your thoughts. I, personally, have found several of your insights very thought-provoking.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/27/2008 02:06PM by civet5285.

I tolerate house rules inside a game I'm in, but outside of a game we're all equals and free to disagree with each other without it qualifying as an attack or putdown. Any appearances of that nature aren't intentional (might be some lingering effects from the flames at the beginning of the year, might not), I just tend to be fairly frank and somewhat blunt at times as a byproduct of being as in-depth as I try to be for the sake of clarity.

You're welcome and I'm glad I could provide food for thought and helpful insights on the topic.

"A shared universe, like any fictional construct, hinges on suspension of disbelief. When continuity is tossed away, it tatters the construct. Undermines it."

-- Peter David

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[www.furaffinity.net] Artist/writer/Creator of The Extinctioners Independent super-hero comic!

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Sappho Character Sheet

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Cornucopia Character Sheet

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Nightmares of Futures Past Ongoing Story

[www.classicmarvel.com] - There is no such thing as too powerful Forum Thread

civet5285 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I hear what you're saying, but in the Norse
> legends, Thor isn't very often challenged very
> often, and he rarely outfought opponents. He
> usually was stronger and tougher, because that's
> the virtue he represented to the Norse.

Except that we're talking about the Marvel Universe here, not Norse mythos. Marvel's Thor is quite different than the real life mythology Thor.

*Not trying to start a fight here but it's interesting that someone would choose to make a distinction between the Mythological Thor and the MU Thor after previously using the mythological Thor as the basis for an opinion*

> Moreover,
> just having experience doesn't make you skilled.

What? Yes it does. That's how you get skill... experience. There's no other way to attain skill.

*The response is not true. Yes skill is gained through repetition and application but the output has to continually increase for a corresponding increase in talent. It is intirely possible for someone to have fought much less than another person and still have aqcuired more skill in combat than the person who fights more often by pushing themselves beyond their limits. It would be similar to two children learning to read, one reads constantly but only reads Doctor Suess books, the other only reads once a week, but after reading the Doctor Suess books moved on to more advanced literature. After a year, who will be the better reader? The kid who reads once a week even though he reads far less often.*

> A
> lot of experienced fighters lose to
> less-experienced but better skilled fighters.

Uh... when? No one's a better fighter with less experience. See above. Thor was born a god of war. That means he started out with an innate sense of fighting, natural talent if you will. I imagine he had around Incredible fighting as a child, which then only grew as he lived and fought for thousands of years.

*Again, see above response. It is entirely feasible.*

>
> Even if the sample set we have in comics accounts
> for 10% of his experience, moreover, look at how
> he fought in that 10%. The MU powerhouses like
> Hulk, when they fought Thor, routinely were able
> to hit him, and usually he fights devolved into
> trading punches. If he truly was that superior a
> fighter, he would outclass them without much
> effort; instead, it's always a fight.

That's the way comic books work, though... no one can get around that. Fighting isn't dodging, it's hitting. Dodging is Agility based. (Incidentally, I think the evasion rules are ridiculously stupid and I don't use them. In my games, dodge is used for ranged as well as melee attacks.) Thor's Agility isn't all that. That's why he gets hit by those powerhouses. He's relatively slow. That's the advantage folks like Cap and Spidey have on Thor... speed.

*I would agree with this. The point being that this IS the way comics work and thus the game, since the game IS an extension of the comics.*

Herbert Wyndham Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Except that we're talking about the Marvel
> Universe here, not Norse mythos. Marvel's Thor is
> quite different than the real life mythology
> Thor.
>
> *Not trying to start a fight here but it's
> interesting that someone would choose to make a
> distinction between the Mythological Thor and the
> MU Thor after previously using the mythological
> Thor as the basis for an opinion*

Aroo? To my knowledge, basing the Marvel Thor on the Thor mythos wasn't the basis for my opinion. :S

>
> > Moreover,
> > just having experience doesn't make you
> skilled.
>
> What? Yes it does. That's how you get skill...
> experience. There's no other way to attain skill.
>
> *The response is not true. Yes skill is gained
> through repetition and application but the output
> has to continually increase for a corresponding
> increase in talent. It is intirely possible for
> someone to have fought much less than another
> person and still have aqcuired more skill in
> combat than the person who fights more often by
> pushing themselves beyond their limits. It would
> be similar to two children learning to read, one
> reads constantly but only reads Doctor Suess
> books, the other only reads once a week, but after
> reading the Doctor Suess books moved on to more
> advanced literature. After a year, who will be the
> better reader? The kid who reads once a week even
> though he reads far less often.*

I disagree with you. When Captain America is able to routinely take on the level of foes that Thor takes on in Asgard (Trolls, Frost Giants, Dwarves, Dark Elves, Demons and Gods, all who have lived for hundreds if not thousands of years), I'll buy that he's more skilled than the Thunder God. Thor has fought thousands of battles. Cap has fought hundreds. Thor is a warrior born god who's been fighting since he was old enough to pick up a sword. Cap is an exceptional human being, but still human, and didn't start fighting until reaching adulthood. I fully believe that Unearthly rank is appropriate for Thor, who is supposed to be Asgard's most skilled warrior.

We've, I think, had to agree to disagree about this one, Punstarr, but I would note that for Thor to be that skilled means his opponents are skilled. If he's had thousands of years to cut down opponents who all charge saying "have at thee," with little or no skill, I'm not sure how much better he'd get. That having been said, however, we can always agree to disagree. I've played with Thor having Unearthly F in groups, and while I do think it can unbalance the game, a skilled Judge can easily compensate. If the F stat truly is an amalgam of the other, physical and mental (ASERIP) abilities, moreover, it makes a lot more sense to me that his stat would be higher than Captain America's, maybe even Unearthly (although I'd probably top him off at Monstrous).

> Except that we're talking about the Marvel
> Universe here, not Norse mythos. Marvel's Thor is
> quite different than the real life mythology
> Thor.
>
> *Not trying to start a fight here but it's
> interesting that someone would choose to make a
> distinction between the Mythological Thor and the
> MU Thor after previously using the mythological
> Thor as the basis for an opinion*

Aroo? To my knowledge, basing the Marvel Thor on the Thor mythos wasn't the basis for my opinion.

My apologies...the posts that I had seen using the mythological Thor as the basis for an argument were from Powersurge. Again, my humble apologies.

> Moreover,
> just having experience doesn't make you skilled.

What? Yes it does. That's how you get skill... experience. There's no other way to attain skill.

*The response is not true. Yes skill is gained through repetition and application but the output has to continually increase for a corresponding increase in talent. It is intirely possible for someone to have fought much less than another person and still have aqcuired more skill in combat than the person who fights more often by pushing themselves beyond their limits. It would be similar to two children learning to read, one reads constantly but only reads Doctor Suess books, the other only reads once a week, but after reading the Doctor Suess books moved on to more advanced literature. After a year, who will be the better reader? The kid who reads once a week even though he reads far less often.*

> A
> lot of experienced fighters lose to
> less-experienced but better skilled fighters.

Uh... when? No one's a better fighter with less experience. See above. Thor was born a god of war. That means he started out with an innate sense of fighting, natural talent if you will. I imagine he had around Incredible fighting as a child, which then only grew as he lived and fought for thousands of years.

*Again, see above response. It is entirely feasible.*

I disagree with you. When Captain America is able to routinely take on the level of foes that Thor takes on in Asgard (Trolls, Frost Giants, Dwarves, Dark Elves, Demons and Gods, all who have lived for hundreds if not thousands of years), I'll buy that he's more skilled than the Thunder God. Thor has fought thousands of battles. Cap has fought hundreds. Thor is a warrior born god who's been fighting since he was old enough to pick up a sword. Cap is an exceptional human being, but still human, and didn't start fighting until reaching adulthood. I fully believe that Unearthly rank is appropriate for Thor, who is supposed to be Asgard's most skilled warrior.

My response above was not specifically concerning Thor but a general response to the assertion that you had made stating that anyone with more experience would always be more skilled than someone with less. I was merely pointing out that it IS entirely possible. As it specifically concerns Thor though, I would still have to disagree. Look at the list of foes that you have presented, none of them are known, outside of a few possible gods, for any extreme skill or martial prowess; they are fodder at worst, brutes at best. Yes CA would evetually lose due to overwhelming strength of arms, but if he was given Unearthly strength and Endurance the outcome would be the same as if Thor were the combatant.