Superman's T.I. rank

According to the stats given for Superman on this site, his True Invulnerability is ranked at Unearthly.

Now, I've never followed Superman comics, and thus don't know squat about "superman fine points", but isn't Unearthly T.I. just a wee bit excessive?!

I mean, that means a Shift Z attack only causes Typical damage!!!

In my campaign, the main hero Morningstar recently battled, alongsdie both the X-Men and Alpha Flight, a facsimile of Superman. This facsimile only had Remarkable T.I. (and my Sasquatch has Unearthly Strength), and Supe's was shrugging off their strongest blows like they were water. Sasq.s Unearthly punches were onbly causing Good damage vs. Rm T.I., Powersurge's Monstrous energy blasts were only causing Typcial damage, etc.

It was a nutso battle. Loads of fun... and I'd say the facsmilie held up to standard of what one would expect from the real Superman. At least judging by Joe Average's knowledge base. But a Superman with Unearthly T.I.?!?!?!? Plus, all of those stats uber-ranks in his stats and powers!! My facsimile had his other stats and powers capped at Amazing, and still more or less cleaned house.

I wouldn't mind seeing your version of Superman... :)

I'd also kinda like to see how you had Wonder Woman & Sasquatch statted out...I read the latest installment from your campaign and though I found it fun reading, I just don't see WW getting dropped by Sasquatch. IMO, the big orange fuzzball'd be hurtin for certain...but that's just me ;)

Again, good read tho...I like the campaign journal...:D Please keep it coming as you get the chance.

Quack, damn you...

Yeah. I was surprised how quickly the remnant heroes cleaned up the JLers.

Of course, all of them were figments of young Brent's imgination and limited by his power's power rank, rather than on anything even remotely objective. So, Wonder Woman didn't have access to her full strength, and all of them suffered severe penalties to their Fighting score.

Even so, Brent was really juiced up for this part of the scenario, and brought in a greater number of "avatars", ie. imaginary beings that are essentially extensions of his own imgination and will, at a greater level of power than he usually would be able.

I got my stats for the JLer's from this site here, save that no one had stats/powers over Amazing and I toned down Superman's T.I. to Remarkable... as opposed to giving him Amazing. And no one had a Fighting score above Poor.

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Powersurge (history, pics) [www.classicmarvel.com]

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Morningstar (campaign journal) [www.classicmarvel.com]

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"You just decided *all by yourselves* that you are the Earth's protectors. And that you, and *only* you, not your teammates or family, are trustworthy enough to include in the process..."

T'Challa, The New Avengers: Illuminati 1

actually. his endurance is over class 1000. that has been proven in a crossover. Thor can put a dent in admantium. Also lasers designed to cut it did squate to him. I'd put his endurance at class 3000. juggernaught- galactus level.

Powersurge Wrote:
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> According to the stats given for Superman on this
> site, his True Invulnerability is ranked at
> Unearthly.
>
> Now, I've never followed Superman comics, and thus
> don't know squat about "superman fine points", but
> isn't Unearthly T.I. just a wee bit excessive?!
>
> I mean, that means a Shift Z attack only causes
> Typical damage!!!
>
> In my campaign, the main hero Morningstar recently
> battled, alongsdie both the X-Men and Alpha
> Flight, a facsimile of Superman. This facsimile
> only had Remarkable T.I. (and my Sasquatch has
> Unearthly Strength), and Supe's was shrugging off
> their strongest blows like they were water. Sasq.s
> Unearthly punches were onbly causing Good damage
> vs. Rm T.I., Powersurge's Monstrous energy blasts
> were only causing Typcial damage, etc.
>
> It was a nutso battle. Loads of fun... and I'd say
> the facsmilie held up to standard of what one
> would expect from the real Superman. At least
> judging by Joe Average's knowledge base. But a
> Superman with Unearthly T.I.?!?!?!? Plus, all of
> those stats uber-ranks in his stats and powers!!
> My facsimile had his other stats and powers capped
> at Amazing, and still more or less cleaned house.

Ah, a perfectly logical explanation...:)

Quack, damn you...

When did Juggernaut get class anything endurance?

The problem has to do with the concept of TI itself. Basically, every hero that used to have good ol' Body resistance now has TI or Armor skin of the same rank. However, the way it's written up, the power of True Invulnerability is massively more beneficial than simple Body Resistance. Personally, I don't use TI as a column ranked shift, but I used it just like Body armor. Then Superman's (and everyone else's)level of TI makes sense.

I agree with the threat For me I would use it like luke cages protection, unearthly verses everything inside and out. But there have certainly been tons of examples of that superman does indeed have better invunerability than this.Another way of dealing with this is to lower his endurance to unearthly so slams and stuns can effect him a little more. I don't know why people want to depower superman so much, if you find him to powerful don't use him.
I never hear people comp[laining about hypreons powers and he is a cheap knock off. Hypreons even got most of the time unearthly fighting. And according to this board he's no where near as powerfull as thor. I think people should read his comics over a years time than decide on the power levels you would like him to have.

well by the supposition then every character that has ever hurt Supes has to have shift X or better strength.

i dont think i'm ready for that.

I just down grade it to Amazing. Tough enough to take a beating and show minor damage for the forces involved.

If you cant tell already i run a low powered/realistice approach to campaigns. Meaning that just like the DC universe evened out the power levels for the characters that survived the crisis, DC characters in the Marvel universe get the same treatment. only faster.

"No where to hide. No place to run. Your village will BURN like the heart of the SUN!" - Richard, Head warlock of the Brotherhood of Darkness, Lord of the 13 Hells, Master of the Bones, Emperor of the Black, Lord of the Undead, Lord of the Dance.

But... I do think there are lots of GMs, players and maybe a game accessory designer or two who has used True Invulnerabilty simply as Body Resistance to EVERYTHING.
In fact, in some venues, it seems like the phrases Body Resistance, Body Armor and True Invulnerability are used interchangably.
Like so many things in the game, it comes down to a GM making a decision: Sticking with the material as written, or saying, "Superman, sorry bud, but you actually have Unearthly BODY RESISTANCE, not TI. The good news, Supes, it is to every source of damage ('cept magic and a few other exceptions...)" or "Fine, you have true True-Invulnerability (hey! True TI! tTI!) but at the Amazing level" the way Sidious does it in his campaign.
Mark


Oh, and I think Ali-Sama was refering to protection, not MSH Endurance a few posts back. Could be a Mayfair-style mixup; easy to do.

"My parents went to The Secret Wars Battleworld and all I got was this lousy T-Shirt..."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/18/2006 08:25PM by Mark.

Redman II Wrote:
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>
> I'd also kinda like to see how you had Wonder
> Woman & Sasquatch statted out... <snip> ...I just don't see WW getting
> dropped by Sasquatch. IMO, the big orange
> fuzzball'd be hurtin for certain...but that's just
> me ;)
>

From what I've been seeing on the JLU cartoon Wonder Woman is very much the female Superman... pretty well undefeatable by her female peers.

In Marvel terms she's kinda like She-Hulk meets Valkyrie, but with a couple of other powers, eg. flight, thrown in to boot!

Nevertheless, Sasquatch has consistently demonstrated Unearthly+ strength levels, so I statted him at a modest Unearthly strength. He has also demonstrated great resilience on a consistent basis, with the entire Snowbird and Sasq's heart, or the blast frm Vindi incident being relatively isolated. He has taken a solid blow from Colossus and laughed it off. He has gone toe-to-toe with the Hulk, with the Thing, and even with the Juggernaut and held his own on each occassion. And he has witstood armour piercing artillery fire.

As basically a great ape, I've always consdiered Sasq. to be fairly dextrous for his size, and thus give him Excellent Agility. Likewise, I consider Sasq. naturally gifted fighter with Remarkable fighting, and, as a creature of the north, fantastically hardy with Monstrous Endurance. I also give him Body Resistence at Remarkable, to say nothing of his intellectual aptitude.

So, by my estimation, Sasquatch could probably hang in their with Wonder Woman. However, I also think that in the end, Wonder Woman's superior fighting and powers of flight, not to mention her femininity and beauty, would give her the edge.

This was the pov the heroes were operating from when Rogue, Jubilee, AND Sasquatch went after Wonder Woman, ie. that Wonder Woman was one tough cookie. As you know of course, Brent's WW was no where near as tough as the "real" deal, and went down alot faster than expected. All of the JLers did... except for Superman.

Whoa.... Superman...

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Powersurge (history, pics) [www.classicmarvel.com]

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Morningstar (campaign journal) [www.classicmarvel.com]

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"You just decided *all by yourselves* that you are the Earth's protectors. And that you, and *only* you, not your teammates or family, are trustworthy enough to include in the process..."

T'Challa, The New Avengers: Illuminati 1

U cant really make a marvel version of superman that will be true to the DC universe.....if anyone has the DC game Supermans str is listed as a 25, again in the DC game...this level allows him to lift/pull/carry well over several hundred thousand TONS!!.....in marvel that weight limit is not even mentioned...the highest the hulk could muster would be 100 tons at normal str...then around maybe 1000 when mad...so not easy to convert from DC to marvel....its just to hard and sad when its tried...I know I have tried it and gave up..also in DC supermans invulnerability is not a defense...its more of a recovery power...just makes it harder to kill him is all not hurt him...so that should make it easy for those who are giving him UN this and that...remember that he is called the man of steel...AM material str...not the man of adamantium or other...

actually in conversions I generally rate Body resistance/TI/BA/armor Skin/ whatever against the BODY rating. Invulnerability IS a radically different power than in Marvel and needs to be handled as such.

honestly i look at what makes sense to me when it comes down to it.

I've seen Superman take a hit from Captain marvel and get a bloody lip. I've seen him fly through a sun and come out the other end.

what does all this mean?

Cl 1000 resistance to heat & flame
and a True invulnerablity ranked some where below Captain Marvels strength.

why is this?

well the bench marks say that with Cl1000 resistance you CAN stand the heat of a sun... ok fine.

and since it's been shown that Marvel is only slightly less strong than Superman, it makes sense. Now the question is how do you break down a Strength of 25 into Marvels 13 ranks. 10 since only under the ut most duress do i give a character that is not galactic class a shift anything.

well it comes to this. I use a specific conversion method to get the numbers to come out right. I also use what i know about the character. having been a comic geen for the last 27 years of my life i've gotten a feel for them. Mostly it comes down to what feels right about the character.

Rating - Marvel Rank

1 - Feeble
2 - Poor
3 - Typical
4 - Good
5 - Excellent
6 - Remarkable
7 - Remarkable (Gd/10 body resistance)
8 - Remarkable (Ex/20 Body resistance)
9 - Incredible (Rm/30 Body resistance)
10 - Incredible (In/40 Body resistance)
11 - Incredible
12 - Incredible
13 - Amazing
14 - Amazing
15 - Amazing
16 - Amazing
17 - Amazing
18 - Amazing
19 - Monsterous
20 - Monsterous
21 - Monsterous
22 - Monsterous
23 - Monsterous
24 - Unearthly
25 - Unearthly
26 - Shift X
27 - Shift X
28 - Shift Y
29 - Shift Y
30 - shift Z/Cl1000
40 - Cl3000
50 - Cl5000

"No where to hide. No place to run. Your village will BURN like the heart of the SUN!" - Richard, Head warlock of the Brotherhood of Darkness, Lord of the 13 Hells, Master of the Bones, Emperor of the Black, Lord of the Undead, Lord of the Dance.

I don't know about everyone else, but I thought the UPB True Invulnerability was just plain stupid. Rank shifts? from another rank? can it get anymore cumbersome?

I always treated T.I. as like Body Armor, but with out the weakness. So if you have IN(40) T.I., then you absorb 40 points of damage. The plus on T.I. is that it works equally for any type of damage: energy, physical, fire, cold, radiation, etc, etc. And it's a system wide Invulnerability too, not just the surface of the skin. So there is no penetrating the armor solution. So guys like Supes can drink the vial of acid and it will not harm them because of T.I. I leave the vulnerability to magic and mental powers as a weakness to T.I. which makes sense. The downside to T.I. is that it costs you two (2) power slots when buying it.

That always seems to work well for my group. If you want to be truly invulnerable, you have to pay for it. It is not a lot different than plain old Body Armor or a Force Field, but it costs more and a few less weakness, not a big deal.

Maybe we, as the MSH community, should say that T.I. is just another form of Armor with the normal point reducing property and create another power, that describes the way the UPB T.I. works? Call it 'Unstable Molecule Armor'. Have this power, with it's Rank shift damage reducer, cost either 2 or 3 power slots. Due to the powerful nature of this kind of armor, I'd be inclined to have it cost 3 powers, but I'm a stingy GM!

I agree completly with this idea. I have also always treated ti this way.

Yeah, me too. Which I already explained. But I like David's explanation of why they call it "True Invulnerability". I forgot that by the Advanced rules Body Resistance gets less defense against energy and vice-versa with Force fields.

However, that being said, it still leaves a big problem that characters with Armor Skin are at a disadvantage. Basically, everyone who had Body Resistance in the old write-ups got the equivalent rank True Invulnerability. (Which is a pretty darned good sign of what T.I. was SUPPOSED to do, I think).

O M G

Auntie needs to find a thead on this subject and just sticky it, its like the topic that will never die. What we need is an all out batle between TI, Wolverine's Claws, Hulks Strength and Supeman vs. ______, and see who can claim the title as the offical topic that would not go away.

DG X(

Marvel > DC

And Magic in the MU ;)

Nahh, I clearly won that argument.:D :.D

ROFLMAO

DG X(

Marvel > DC