Black Knight

Hi all. Does any one beleive Black Knights stats should be updated? I think both Endurance and Reason should be Excellent. He's a fighter but also a scientist. These traits got him in to the Avengers. Any comments?

All I can say is that, from a purely game-wise point of view, the Avengers sure have some odd criteria for accepting members.
Look at some of their more powerful members. Thor, Hercules, Iron Man - these guys are at the top of the power scale for the non-cosmic Marvel Universe. Thor can crack a Celestial's armor with his hammer, and Iron Man just upgrades until he's virtually unbeatable.
Now let's look at some of their other members. Black Knight. Swordsman. Mockingbird.
Who would you want by your side if you were facing Thanos or the hordes of Kang in a parallel dimension? A woman who can pole vault with two sticks she carries around or a lightning-hurling Asgardian diety who can also bench press a freight car?
Not only that, but I would imagine that somebody like Iron Man would stop and think about his teammates who are little more than just trained athletes with a gimmick before hauling them off with him to tackle the Masters of Evil or the Kree. Sure, some of the Avengers are powerful, but anybody who can provide a challenge to the Vision isn't exactly going to be slowed down by a normal guy with an unbreakable sword.
Just my two cents on the issue. I don't really know much about Black Knight in general, so I can't comment on his Reason or Endurance.
For my money, anybody who goes into the superheroing business without powers and at least a Remarkable Endurance is suicidal.

I'd like to change that to "powers OR an Endurance of at least Remarkable." But that's just me. :)



==
Quidquid latine dictum sit altum viditur. (Translation: Everything said in Latin
sounds profound.)

Well if Avengers were 'real life', I would think it went something like this: Cap would be in advisory manner, maybe not even on field ops. Mockingbird would be relegated as a liasion and Avengers mansion head of security (ex SHIELD and all). Iron Man if Tony is smart enough would keep adapting his armour when ever he finds new/alien tech. Thor, Quaser, Wonder Man, Sersi or similiar would be the 'core group'. Every one else may have power (Scarlet Witch) but are essentially 'human' durability.

Even in game terms the World's Mightiest Heroes are a strange conglomeration.
Picture the following Avengers on the same team. I'm not sure if they ever were, but it gets the point across: Thor, Captain Marvel/Photon (I think that's her name now,) Iron Man, Falcon, Swordsman and Black Widow.
Now from a game perspective, what kind of adventure would you throw at those players? Can you imagine telling the Falcon to get into a fight with the Absorbing Man? Black Widow taking on Ultron? How about Thor trying to creep into an opponent's hideout unseen?

Whoa, I totally disagree. Sometimes the "weaker" members of the team are the best. Soemtimes, there are enemies that can not be defeated by physical force and require trickery, cunning and guile. Sometimes, there are situations which involve defeating a powerful villain and rescuing someone at the same time. SOmetimes a key distraction helps. The list is endless.

Anyways, Black Knight or Captain America aren't really that weak. Depends on how you roll play them and on creativity. THe Black Knight's sword makes him immune to all forms of magical attack. I'd rather have the BK on my side vs Spiral or Loki or Baron Mordo, than Hercules or Iron man.

The Scarlett Witch may in fact be the most powerful Avenger. Her Hex fields are capable of affecting Cl1000 level defenses like Adamantium. She used her Hex powers on Ultron. With creative roll-playing and some leniency from the judge, she can defeat almost anyone.

So the point is that every Avenger has their own role but having too many heavy-hitters isn't good. A baseball team loaded with nothing but Free-swinging power hitters isn't better than a few guys that get on base, a few defensive specialists and the elite 3 and 4 hitters/



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You have a point. Every character has their place, to be sure.
And I definitely did not mention either Captain America or the Scarlet Witch when I was talking about the weaker members of the Avengers.
But it seems that, in a typical Avengers situation, a lot of the times they are just fighting someone. Straight up. They find a bad guy and attack. So the discrepancy between power levels becomes a factor.
When the did the Avengers ever fight Baron Mordo or Spiral, anyway?

The_Threat wrote:

> Whoa, I totally disagree. Sometimes the "weaker" members of
> the team are the best. Soemtimes, there are enemies that can
> not be defeated by physical force and require trickery, cunning
> and guile. Sometimes, there are situations which involve
> defeating a powerful villain and rescuing someone at the same
> time. SOmetimes a key distraction helps. The list is endless.
>
> Anyways, Black Knight or Captain America aren't really that
> weak. Depends on how you roll play them and on creativity. THe
> Black Knight's sword makes him immune to all forms of magical
> attack. I'd rather have the BK on my side vs Spiral or Loki or
> Baron Mordo, than Hercules or Iron man.
>
> The Scarlett Witch may in fact be the most powerful Avenger.
> Her Hex fields are capable of affecting Cl1000 level defenses
> like Adamantium. She used her Hex powers on Ultron. With
> creative roll-playing and some leniency from the judge, she can
> defeat almost anyone.
>
> So the point is that every Avenger has their own role but
> having too many heavy-hitters isn't good. A baseball team
> loaded with nothing but Free-swinging power hitters isn't
> better than a few guys that get on base, a few defensive
> specialists and the elite 3 and 4 hitters/
>

Eh, I don't quite agree with this counter argument. Yeah, these kinds of things have been depicted in comics ad nauseam, but we are talking "real world scenario" here. Yeah, BK's sword and Scarlet Witch's hex power are definitely powerful, but I think the focus was more on the Falcon/MockingBird level character. The fundamental flaw is that, for some reason, people think power characters are NOT capable of trickery or guile. Does Iron Man's power armor inhibit Tony Stark's cunning? He is a freakin' genius after all and gets by just fine in his own books. While a Power Team + Roleplayers (couldn't resist) is better than a Power Team + nobody it isn't as good as a Power Team + more Power.

It actually makes me think of that movie Shallow Hal. Hal is superficial, only seeing the outer beauty of women and not what's on the inside. He gets hypnotized into seeing the opposite: hot chicks are ugly, sweethearts are beautiful. But, it drops the ball. The movie says that beautiful women AREN'T good people on the inside too. That's wrong. It says you have to pick: beauty on the inside OR the outside. In reality you don't have to pick, you CAN have your cake and eat it too. Besides, Hal's neighbor stays beautiful for the ENTIRE movie, so she obviously is great inside and out. This applies to members of the Avengers. Iron Man and Vision not only bring the muscle, they bring the brain too. Someone like the Black Widow might have social contacts that are important, but that would keep her OFF the front lines, not on them.

And the baseball analogy is OK, you do need some variety, but major league teams have the practical problem of money. You don't want half a dozen middle-of-the-road sluggers comprising your team, but if a team could actually get the top 9 homerun leaders in MLB all in its lineup at the same time you best bet they would do so, and they would be a great team.

The Olympic basketball team might be a better example, seeing as how they are all All-Stars and lost anyway, but basketball is a different game. That team required stars to not be stars, and the personalities involved couldn't pull that off. They were a bunch of guys each playing one-on-one, not a team playing another team. The baseball analog would be what position people play, but that is a simpler problem. As long as the egos involved could stand NOT being the main gun in the front line, an all-heavy-hitter team is great. That is how the Defenders started out afterall, where Namor was the weakest member.



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Namor was the WEAKEST member of the Defenders? Wow. Considering he's on par with the Thing and has beaten the Hulk more than once, that must have been quite a lineup.

The Black Knight was an interesting character while he had the Ebony Sword because of his invulnerability to magic. He was much less interesting after he was relegated to the use of a standard light sabre.

He probably deserves Excellent reason, but I'm not sure about his Endurance. Of course, Endurance is one of those "cheating" stats where the stat-writers often give characters a boost because they feel bad or something (I mean, what's up with Storm having Amazing endurance???).

I have no problem with Captain America being a member of Earth's mightiest. He's the best tactician they've ever had, his shield is totally indestructible, and he's one of the best hand to hand combatants on Earth. As such, he can at least occupy, if not actually defeat, virtually any opponent. The Scarlet Witch's hex power enables her to actually defeat virtually any opponent, although she needs protection from her more physically powerful teammates. Which brings up the interesting point: why not have Stark create power armor for any Avenger who needs it? The Scarlet Witch is an ideal candidate. She doesn't have anything beyond rudimentary fighting skills, and is usually a sitting duck unless she gets off her hex. But if she were wearing even an low-grade version of the Iron Man armor, look out. They kind of did this with Psylocke of the X-Men for a while, giving her a suit of armor that protected her long enough to take opponents out with her telepathic powers.

Original Defenders line up was (iirc) Hulk, Silver Surfer, Namor and Doctor Strange. So yeah, even as manly as he is I'd count Namor as the least powerful member.



With great power comes great responsibility in a world that fears and hates you, because criminals are a cowardly and superstitious lot.

I would have to agree, With all do respect to the lord of atlantis, he would be the weakest link here.
As for the avengers and its cast, I think they would be going for each avenger would fit a different type of mission.
If you wanted Secret documents from some other nations defence department,, then you send Black Widow, unless you don't care if it starts a war then you can just let Thor bash his way in and take them. If REd Skrull and five of his goons have hostages with guns to there head and they are scattered through out a scyscraper then a little tact might save some hostage's life, This would be Ideal for Cap and the Widow. Ad A bomb and you Now have a mission for Tony STark that doesn't have to do with the Power of his suit.
Each avenger had a roll, even if some of the rolls were clean up. Variety brings depth and strength, Not to mention more readers.
Afterall if I had a vest on with a bomb strapped to it the would detinate if removed and the timer was ticking, I sure and hell don't want to see Hercules coming to the rescue.:hot:



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