Wonder Woman
Posted by Killer B
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Makes perfect sense to me -- WW's a member of a race of Warrior Women, she's trained in many forms of combat most all her life. Supes has never really undergone anything resembling formal combat training, largely relying on his innate speed, strength, and durability. Thus, in the DC Heroes RPG, WW has spent points on the Martial Arts skill, while Kal-El has not. 'Course, in MSH RPG terms, both would have roughly equal Fighting & Agility scores -- WW more from training, and Supes more from his superhuman coordination/reflexes. --------------------- Be Ex/20 to one another!
Dr Archeville wrote:
> > > Makes perfect sense to me -- WW's a member of a race of Warrior > Women, she's trained in many forms of combat most all her life. > Supes has never really undergone anything resembling formal > combat training, largely relying on his innate speed, strength, > and durability. Thus, in the DC Heroes RPG, WW has > spent points on the Martial Arts skill, while Kal-El has not. > > 'Course, in MSH RPG terms, both would have roughly equal > Fighting & Agility scores -- WW more from training, and Supes > more from his superhuman coordination/reflexes. > I agree, but I was driving at the fact that MSHRPG has Fighting, Agility and Talents while D.C. Mayfair only has Dex and Skills. 3 to 2 ratio. (Wow. Deja vu. Did we ever cover this before? So, logic would dictate to me that WW would get something like Monstrous Fighting and every Martial Art and Superman would get, like, Remarkable or Incredible Fighting and no Martial Arts. But I've been flipping through my MSHRPG books for 14 years now and feel comfortable "guessing" those stats. If I was trying to create an actual conversion formula for these systems, one that would simply be math and not require years of experience, I think it would be tough. At some point you would have to "launder" those Skills from Mayfair into Fighting score points and NOT Talents. Hmm...maybe I'll give it a shot next week. But yeah, WW logically should be that good. It's just that you don't ever hear her mentioned when people talk about the best "fighters" in the DCU. I guess it's because she isn't very "tae-kwon-doughy". I bet a lot of fanbois would swear on their dead mother that Batman is a better fighter, but honestly that doesn't make sense. Her grandfather is Ares! ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Build a man a fire and he will be warm for a night. Set a man on fire, and he will be warm the rest of his life
Figured I'd add the qualitative descriptions listed for Mayfair's base stats. I'll give the peak human score and then WW's score.
Dexterity --------- 9-10 = "This person possesses the best agility humanly possible and could easily become a record setting gold medal Olympic gymnast." 13-15 = This level of agility allows the dodging of laser fire and the ability to sight and catch slower moving projectiles, such as arrows and bullets." Strength -------- 5-6 = 900 to 1,600 pounds. I don't know how they define "lift". 16-18 = 1,600 to 6,400 tons. Welcome to the DCU. Body ---- 5-6 = "The body is conditioned to withstand the greatest amount of damage humanly possible. The individual possesses exceptional resistance to fatigue." 13-15 = "The body has a density ranging from titanium (at 13) to diamond hardness (at 15). At this level the individual is nearly invulnerable and can easily withstand anti-tank fire." Guess she needs more than Excellent Body Armor I'll some more later. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Build a man a fire and he will be warm for a night. Set a man on fire, and he will be warm the rest of his life
Remember that WW has also undergone many, many changes depending upon the era, the writer, and the general mood of comics.
In the seventies, she was reduced to being virtually powerless, but used 'super-martial arts'. Gone were the bracelets and lasso and invisible jet--oh no, she was a FIGHTER! ((This didn't last too long, as she suddenly lacked the ability to actually kick @#$%&!)) In the eighties, she was given the mantle of the Greek Goddess of Truth (hence explaining why a warrior was given a lasso as a weapon). The exact specifics were undefined, but it involved a lot of mystic stuff, she could read minds for truth or deception and the like. Diana was pretty butt-kicking, buit her whole pacifism-over-all schtick was lost on the 'Me Generation'. Let's not even bring up Artemis, the all-new 'bad girl' WW for the nineties. though she's been subsequnetly written into an interesting character, Artemis was a total DUD as Wonder Woman. WW has always had massive 'writer syndrome': she's as powerful, or as weak, as the writer needs her to be to manage his story. This leads to WW taking direct hits from Doomsday without flinching in one issue, followed by her getting her tiara smacked off her head by the Royal Flush Gang.
Funny you should stress the writer syndrome with Wonder Woman. The guy who invented her was something else.
[www.wonderwoman-online.com] He also apparently lived with his wife and "assitant", a young woman who wore conspicuous metal bracelets. He had chlidren with both of them. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Build a man a fire and he will be warm for a night. Set a man on fire, and he will be warm the rest of his life
To help out with the Martial Arts scores in DC Heroes, here is a benchmark list done by those residing in the DC Heroes mailing list.
One thing I've noticed after years of converting DC Heroes stats, nearly every single character ever written up is given the Martial Arts skill. This list should help judge not only if they deserve any of the Marvel Martial Arts talents but also to determine the Fighting rank. Martial arts benchmark v1.1 By Sebastien Andrivet Helpers: John Colagioia, Phil Dixon Liminary note 1 : As with any nearly every aspect of a writeup, it is important to reiterate that the evaluation of skill levels for a character must be based on observed, actual efficiency in the primary source - comics for a comic book characters, movie for a movie character, etc. Hand-to-hand ability, especially, is often subject to hyperbole, many characters being described as "one of the very best hand-to-hand fighter on Earth" or as having "centuries of fighting experience", yet do not perform about a Martial artist: 08 or so. Liminary note 2 : "Martial artist" does not necessarily correspond with formal training in Oriental martial arts, but rather is a capacity to engage in hand-to-hand combat and perform beyond what could be expected from your DEX, STR and BODY. The best way to describe a character with a good Martial artist Skill is not to say he's a black belt with so many dan, but that he does real well in unharmed combat. "Pugilistics" might have been a more appropriate name. Hence, persons such as boxers or tireurs (savate experts) may have Martial artist. Efficient, often experienced brawlers such as many hardboiled two-fisted detective of fiction may have martial artist. This Skill can also be used for peoples who have excellent close combat fighting ability for no discernible reason, which is not as rare as you might expect. Liminary note 3: On the other hand, DEX (and to a lesser extend STR and BODY) can often be sufficient. If the character"s efficiency in hand-to-hand combat is just what you'd expect from his physical stats, Martial artist is not needed - even if the character is described as practicing martial arts. Benchmarks : Martial artist: 03 This is the level of an average going to a martial arts class or self-defense course at least twice a week. This is also the level of somebody regularly caught in bar brawls or street brawls and has learned to defend himself. Martial artist: 04 The person has presumably received rough, intensive training in close combat or has significant experience. A martial arts enthusiast with some brawling experience, a riot cop, or soldiers with good close combat training are likely to have this level of skill. Assuming suitable Attributes, a Character with this level of skill has reasonable, but not overwhelming chances of defeating an average thug. Martial artist: 05 Professional level. The person is a black belt in a combat-worthy martial art, with combat experience. Alternatively, he may be somebody with extensive brawl experience and a fearsome reputation in such endeavours. Many heroes in action movies who are not specialists in hand to hand combat have this level of skill. Soldiers and cops who are close combat instructors often have this level of skill. Assuming suitable Attributes, a Character with this level of skill will defeat an average thug and has some chance of winning against two thugs. Martial artist: 07 Master hand to hand combattant. The person is recognized as a martial arts master - or he's a two-fisted action hero with great skills in brawling. Cinematic action heroes that have are hand to hand combat specialists often have this level of skill - for instance Jackie Chan characters often have this level of skill. This is also the usual level of such formidable brawlers as the first Vigilante in his prime, Starman VII (Jack Knight), Manhunter I and II, etc. Assuming suitable Attributes, a Character with this level of skill has reasonable chances of taking on as many as eight thugs (e.g., a roomfull) in a brawl. Martial artist skill above 07 is considered rare, and efforts should be done in the character concept department to justify them. Martial arts: 08 Peoples who are better than the peoples with a 07. :-) This is a level of barely believable pugilistic skill. No amount of unharmed thugs and martial arts specialists is going to take down the Character, who is clearly superior to even the masters and formidable brawlers trailing one AP behind them. The emblematic Characters with this level of skill are, of course, Wildcat I and Bruce Lee. Assuming suitable Attributes, a Character with this level of skill cannot reasonably be expected to lose against normal opposition. Martial artist: 09 The character is a world-class master of hand-to-hand combat, able to perform feats that would be unbelievable in the real world. He can be one of the greatest masters ever of his martial art, or a superhuman or near superhuman brawler, and is widely regarded as being invincible in hand to hand combat. Wire-fu protagonists often have this level of skill. Assuming suitable Attributes, a Character with this level of skill has reasonable chances of taking on entire squads of thugs in a brawl. Martial arts: 10 The character has an efficiency that places him among the top twelve martial artists in the world - wether or not he's a martial artist himself. This level of skill often comes with a strong mystique ; it is the level of Batman or Deathstroke the Terminator at their peak, or the Bronze Tiger. A human character with this level of skill can engage and defeat superhumanly strong opponents in hand to hand combat, assuming suitable Attributes and HPs. Martial arts: 11 This is the realm of about the top three martial artists in the world, or peoples with comparable hand-to-hand skill. In the Marvel Universe that means Captain America, Shang Chi and the Cat ; in the DCU Lady Shiva, Richard Dragon and the Sensei. In Hong Kong cinema, Chen Zhen (Jet Li in "Fist of legend") at the end of the movie is the best candidate. Martial arts: 12-15 Godlike, thoroughly paranormal fighting skill. Two main types of characters occupy this slot : - Gods. Wonder Woman, Hercules, Gilgamesh... - "Super-Karate" or "Mythic Kung Fu" ; examples include Karate Kid I (who could destroy tanks bare-handed and engage Daxamites in close combat) or Master Wong who could defeat dozens of martial arts champions in seconds or scatter armies (Jet Li in "Once upon a time in China") MSH Classic RPG System [rivendell.fortunecity.com]
FOOM's Quick and Dirty DCH to MSH Conversion Tables: DCH Dex/Bod/Int/Will/Mind/Infl/Wealth to ( respectively) MSH Fight&Agil/Endur/Intui/Psych/Popularity/Resources 1 = 2 or 4 2 = 6 3 = 10 4 to 5 = 20 6 to 8 = 30 9 to 10 = 40 11 to 12 = 50 13 to 15 = 75 16 to 18 = 100 19 to 21 = 150 22 to 24 = 200 25 to 27 = 500 28 to 30 = 1000 31 to 35 = 3000 36 to 65 = 5000 66 > = Beyond Marvelizing the DCH Strength and Power Damage Action Points: 1 = 2 or 4 2 = 6 3 = 10 4 to 5 = 20 6 = 30 7 to 9 = 40 10 = 50 11 = 75 12 to 24 = 100 ( to Marvelize the Superstrong; otherwise a 16 in DCH = 1000 in MSH!!!) 25 = 150 26 = 200 27 = 500 28 to 30 = 1000 31 to 35 = 3000 36 to 65 = 5000 66 > = Beyond DCH Character Body/Resistance Value to MSH Protection Rank Value 1 to 6 = no extraordinary toughness; no natural protection. 7 = 6 8 = 10 9 to 10 = 20 11 to 12 = 30 13 = 40 14 = 50 15 = 75 16 to 24 = 100 25 = 150 26 = 200 27 = 500 28 to 30 = 1000 31 to 35 = 3000 36 to 65 = 5000 66 > = Beyond Examples: Batman's BOD is 6. That is an Endurance of Remarkable (30) in MSH, and no natural toughness or armor. His FAS scores are 40/40/20. Wonder Woman's BOD is 13. Her Endurance rank would be Monstrous (75) and her natural toughness/dense flesh gives her Incredible (40) protection due to her enhanced Amazonian Physiology. However, that 40 is only good v. blunt attacks, force, grappling, and charging attacks. She has no protection, save her bracelets, v. edged, shooting, or energy attacks. Superman's FASE in MSH is: 75/75/150/100; His DCH 18 BOD gives him Unearthly (100) dense flesh due to his Kryptonian Physiology. In DCH his Heat Vision does 15 APs in damage. In MSH it does Monstrous (75).
Those seem like very reasonable conversion charts. I thought through some conversions and they came very close to what I stat-ed people as "off the top of my head". Good job.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Build a man a fire and he will be warm for a night. Set a man on fire, and he will be warm the rest of his life
Thats awesome ty. Mailing list archives might be the closest thing to "buried treasure" that exists for useless internet info
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Build a man a fire and he will be warm for a night. Set a man on fire, and he will be warm the rest of his life
Thanks. One can adjust where one sees fit to do so.
For instance, when you watch the Justice League series and Wonder Woman battles Superman in that episode where to each other they look and sound like monsters, neither game system adheres to how that animated battle went down. My tables give Supes a Strength of 150. WW's Amazonian physiology gives her 40 points of protection. With 110 points of slugfest damage getting through, WW is KO'd after three successful hits. Conversely, WW cannot even scratch Supes. Her Unearthly (100) punches boucne off his 100 points of protection. She can still get Stun and Slam results, IF Supes fails his End FEAT to resist. Since a White or Green fail, Superman can resist with a 36+. So there is a 35 percent chance WW's stuns could get through. She would need to use heavy objects for a +1CS damage boost to start deducting his health, and when ever she gets a Stun result, be relentless and continue to strike. In my game successful Stun results "stack".
In WEG's DC Universe RPG, the result's much the same.
In there, Superman has a Brawl score of 16D, a Dodge score of 16D, a total Physique of 35D, Invulnerability 11D and 185 Body Points. Wonder Woman has Brawl 14D, Dodge 13D, Physique 33D, Invulnerability 10D (but only vs. blunt attacks) and 175 Body Points. In WEG's DCURPG, an unarmed attack must be at a rank equal to 3x your Invulnerability code before it has a chance of hurting you, and unarmed attacks that can hurt you have your Invulnerability die code subtracted from the total damage. Physique is analogous to MSH Strength & Endurance, and Body Points are the same as Health. Supes is more likely to land a hit on Dianna than she is to land one on him, since his Brawl score is higher than her Dodge score, and her Brawl score is lower than his Dodge score. However, the difference isn't that great. Wonder Woman's just strong enough to affect Supes with her blows. On average, each hit'll do 22 points of damage, KO'ing Supes in 9 hits. Superman, however, is more than strong enough to bypass Diana's Invulnerability. He'll be doing, on average, 25 points of damage per hit, KO'ing her in 7 hits. --------------------- Be Ex/20 to one another!
Wonder Womans BA is very low and bullets can still get through. I would rather give her a resistance to blunt physical attacks than true BA now that i think about it.
The Manhunter has about the same armor as the Thing (normal rocky) does. which is to say quite alot but nowhere near the Hulks or Supermans level. Remember a Martian can control every molecule of his body, so that lends alot of resistance.
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