Captain Marvel (DC)... another look?
Posted by CastleBravo
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I've updated his talents based on the above.
I'm still not real settled on his FASE & power ranks. We know the following: - Superman probably has more raw power than Captain Marvel. This is the general consensus, although their comic book encounters make this debatable (and even Superman seems to think so). My Shift-X for Strength and Endurance were based on the fact that the Superman writeup on this site has Superman with Shift-Y Endurance & Strength up to to Shift-Y as needed. These seem like HIGH figures, but we are talking about DC's heaviest hitters, and some have argued that Superman needs at least Shift-Z in each stat to be "accurate" in MSH. - We also know that they are a close enough match-up in a straight up fight that who wins is NOT a foregone conclusion, even if we leave out Captain Marvel nailing Supes with magical lightning. Hence Captain Marvel can't be TOO much lower than Superman, with is pretty damn high even if you are conservative. - This makes Captain Marvel having much lower fighting ability or hyper-speed powers seem unlikely, even though that is what the above write up suggests. Indeed, if we make Captain Marvel have lower Strength and Endurance, we almost HAVE TO raise his Fighting to make any fight close to "even." So I dunno. -The other big open question is what the heck to do about his "Wisdom of Solomon." Even in the comics, it doesn't seem too clear what it does. It doesn't seem to make him a genius in a scientific/knowledge/skill sense... he's not a Reed Richards who can bench-press a building. But that's what the write-up above suggests, so I dunno. And can't Captain Marvel transport himself to the Rock of Eternity, too? What rank Dimension Travel would that be? Guess it depends on how long/hard a trip it is, dimension-wise. On the upside, if we get a consensus on this, we've got Black Adam's new stats too. Post Edited (02-11-04 18:14)
The Speed Manipulation (supermobility, superactions) 8D each covers that. With Speed Manipulation (supermobility) 8D, running at 2,000 mph is a Very Easy task for him (1 success on a Physique/running check). If he gets 34 sccess on a Physique/flying check, he can fly at 400,000,00 mph (about 1/2 light speed). Conversely, Supes, with Speed Manipulation (supermobility) 10D can, with 37 successes on a Physique/flying check, attain a flight speed of 1,000,000,000 mph (about 1.5 light speed). [[ I may be slightly off, since it's been awhile since I've read the rules for Speed Manipulation, but I'm fairly certain that's right. ]] Post Edited (02-11-04 18:26) --------------------- Be Ex/20 to one another!
Those movement speeds are HUGE... that's Class 5000+ ground speed and Class 1000+ air speed for Captain Marvel according to the MSH Player's Book.
Guess my writeup of his movement powers was pretty conservative, since they "only" go up to Shift-X when linked w/ Hyper-Speed... So what do the lifting values correspond to in tons?
This would tend to reinforce the idea that Superman's invulnerability is not negated by Captain Marvel's magical power source. Post Edited (02-11-04 19:03)
With a (total) Physique of 33D and a Physique/lifting of 34D, lifting 7,000 tons is a Very Easy task for Captain Marvel. If he gets lucky and gets 34 successes on his lifting roll, he can press 190,000 tons. With a (total) Physique of 35D and a Physique/lifting of 36D, lifitng 7,000 tons is a Very Easy taks for Superman. If he gets lucky and gets 36 successes on his lifting roll, he can press 210,000 tons. And before anyone says how "uber" the DCU scale is, I'm going to point out that the lifting values space out far better than in MSH. Essentially, it goes 20 lbs -- 50 lbs -- 100 lbs -- 200 lbs -- 400 lbs -- 1,000 lbs -- 1,500 lbs -- 1 ton -- 2 tons -- 3 tons -- 4 tons -- 5 tons -- 6 tons -- 7 tons -- 8 tons -- 9 tons -- 10 tons -- 20 tons -- 30 tons -- 40 tons -- 50 tons -- 100 tons -- 150 tons -- I'm stopping now...
True, true, though it should at least be reduced somewhat -- CM's given Supes many a bloody nose, and whenever they fight Supes always thinks to himself that CM's magic-derived powers give him an edge. I'm fairly certain the demons, vampires and werewolves of the DCU have the same "magically empowered" enhancement on their abilities, and they're able to hurt Supes jut fine. I'll look it up tonight and see. Post Edited (02-12-04 05:54) --------------------- Be Ex/20 to one another!
How does this look as a Supes vs. Captain Marvel stat set? Not all powers are included, just ones they share so you can judge their relative power levels for correctness:
Captain Marvel: F: Mn (75) A: Mn (75) S: Sh-X (150) E: Sh-X (150) R: Gd (10) I: Ex (20) P: Rm (30) H: 425 K: 60 Body Resistance: Mn (75) Hyper-Speed: Am (50) Hyper-Running: Un (100) True Flight: Un (100) in atmosphere, Cl1000 in space. -Hyper-Running and True Flight can be linked with Hyper-Speed to raise them to Sh-X (150) on a successful Endurance FEAT. Superman: F: In (40) A: Un (100) S: Un (100)* E: Sh-Y (300) R: Rm (30) I: Ex (20) P: Rm (30) H: 540 K: 80 *By tapping into his solar energies, he can raise this to Sh-Y (300) at will. Otherwise his Health advantage over Captain Marvel becomes too big. This is also how the writeup here treats his super-strength. Body Resistance: Un (100) Hyper-Speed: Am (50) Hyper-Running: Sh-X (150) True Flight: Sh-X (150) in atmosphere, Cl3000 in space -Hyper-Running and True Flight can be linked with Hyper-Speed to raise them to Sh-Y (200) on a sucessful Endurance FEAT. This would seem to give them combat parity, or fairly close to it, while still giving Superman more raw power and higher top speed. Their base Intuition and Psyche parity is based in part on the DC stats noted above. Post Edited (02-12-04 07:38)
Hi Castle Bravo mate! (and hello everyone else)
I always found the DC Heroes RPG better than the DC Universe RPG. From that the physical stats are as follows: Captain Marvel Fighting: UN/100 Agility: S-X/150 Strength: S-X/150 Endurance: S-X/150 Health: 550 Invulnerability: UN/100 Power Reserve: Increase any ability by two ranks (or two seperate abilities by one rank). Superman Fighting: UN/100 Agility: S-Y/200 Strength: S-Y/200 Endurance: S-Y/200 Health: 700 Invulnerability: S-X/150 Heat Vision: S-X/150 Cold Breath: UN/100 Doomsday Fighting: S-X/150 Agility: S-X/150 Strength: S-Y/200 Endurance: S-Y/200 Health: 700 Invulnerability: S-X/150 Regeneration: EX/20 Darkseid Fighting: MN/75 Agility: S-Y/200 Strength: S-Y/200 Endurance: S-X/150 Health: 625 Invulnerability: S-X/150 Regeneration: IN/40 Omega Effect: S-Z/500 Possible problems with the above stats are that even with the amazing stats above they don't account for Superman being able to survive explosions in the nuclear range. One possible theory is that Class 1000 is for the multi-megaton range; and Shift-Z/500 would work for explosions in the kiloton range. Another problem is that Darkseid (and therefore indirectly by extension Superman and Doomsday) should really be in the same sort of range as Odin, something the above stats really don't account for. I'm not totally sure one way or the other but those are the most accurate I have come up with to date. You address OMNIPOTENCE, tread carefully.
Maybe trying to kill Superman with a nuke is a bit like trying to kill me by throwing a really big ham sandwich at me. Hydrogen bombs are powered by the same types of fusion reactions that the sun is.
And if you mean Superman getting nuked in The Dark Knight Returns, that story is outside mainstream DC continuity. I've lost track of him getting nuked elsewhere. One other thing is, I don't think these translations to the Marel stat for "Fighting" are necessarily Kosher. Fighting in Marvel is supposed to reflect ability and skill, not physical power/raw speed, so Superman doesn't merit huge Fighting in my mind based on what he does in the comics. He doesn't exhibit HUGE skill/talent at fighting; he's just got so much power that it doesn't matter. Post Edited (02-12-04 15:17)
Or maybe nuclear weapons just aren't that powerful. They don't need to be in the Cl1000 range - all the evidence is that Adamantium can survive a nuclear blast. And, yes, I am referring to that Venom comic. No matter how much it may have sucked, it still makes a case for Adamantium vs Nukes.
Is there any evidence that any part of a nuclear attack inflicts damage out of the Shift range? I like the 'combination of effects' theory. I'd say a nuclear warhead is a number of simultaneous attacks - shockwave, heat, radiation - all at ranks between Monstrous and about SH-Y. After all, there were fragments of walls left standing in Hiroshima, suggesting that Little Boy the baby nuke probably only did about Incredible to Amazing damage to property. This way a nuke is still absolutely lethal to anyone who doesn't have serious invulnerability, but it's still possible for characters such as Superman to survive it. It also takes into account the differing ranges of the various attacks (I believe the shockwave travels furthest, the heat the least). -Wal Surrender? What? You think this letter on my head stands for FRANCE?
Actually, it is the other way 'round...
[nuclearweaponarchive.org]
With this info you could probably model a nuke's effects pretty well in MSH terms if you were motivated to do so.
By the way, I agree 100% with this. Unless you are sitting right inside the casing of a fusion bomb, I don't think you need Class 1000 effects to explain everything a nuke does. Remember, "normal" man-made materials only go up to Unearthly. Hit a hunk of Unearthly material with multiple Shift-X+ sources of damage, and you'll break it. Meanwhile, my (arguably UNDERPOWERED) Superman writeup has 540 health and Unearthly body resistance. If he took Shift-X radiation, blast and heat damage (3x150=450 damage) and his Body Resistance did nothing against any of the 3 damage sources (unlucky day maybe?), he'd still expect to live, but be hurt REALLY bad. And of course he'd be at a risk for a stun/slam/kill on a red result. My Captain Marvel writeup could *conceiveably* survive a nuke modeled that way, too, but has less margin for bad luck with only Monstrous body resistance and 425 health instead of 540. Naturally, if we gave these characters Total Invulnerability instead of the more conservative Body Resistance they'd survive easily, since you'd shift everything a bunch of column shifts lower. Post Edited (02-12-04 19:58)
Hi guys!
One 'catch 22' in converting DC characters is that if we lower nuclear weapon damage (I agree with you and Wallace about nuclear weapons) to allow the characters to survive it, how do we account for the fact that essentially Darkseid should be roughly equal with Odin (Skyfathers) in terms of power!? Then you realise that Superman rivals Darkseid (physically at least) so by extension Odin again. Additionally whatever stats we apply to Superman affect Captain Marvel. I mean you could easily convert upper limit versions to: Superman Fighting: UN/100 Agility: S-Z/500 Strength: S-Z/500 Endurance: S-Z/500 Health: 1600 Invulnerability: S-X/150 Captain Marvel Fighting: UN/100 Agility: S-X/150 Strength: S-Y/200 Endurance: S-X/150 Health: 600 Invulnerability: UN/100 Power Reserve: +2 ranks to any single ability or +1 rank to any two abilities. You address OMNIPOTENCE, tread carefully.
What is the justification for giving Captain Marvel a Power Reserve ability? With that power he can get Class 1000 strength or Shift-Z endurance (and stronger than Superman, by the way).
Simple: the conversion is flawed. Or more accurately, the systems aren't interchangeable by a simple formula. Superman doesn't merit Unearthly fighting if we go by what Fighting is supposed to be in MSH, for instance. Another problem: in JLA/Avengers, Superman and Thor are close in terms of power level. Superman is more powerful, but he isn't orders of magnitude more powerful like these writeups suggest. Giving him Shift-Z everything (and raising Captain Marvel et. al.'s powers accordingly) may simply be the wrong/inaccurate approach. Maybe Supes strength IS "only" Shift-Y, but he's got Class 3000 teleknesis at contact range for lifting objects. That way his punches don't insta-kill Thor, but he can still lift huge amounts. It also solves the issue of Superman's health getting WAAAAY higher than Captain Marvel's by being a higher Shift-whatever ability score. Going from Unearthly to Shift-X adds 50 health. Going from Shift-X to Shift-Y adds 150 health. Going from Shift-Y to Shift-Z adds 200 health. Post Edited (02-13-04 11:14)
> Is there any evidence that any part of a nuclear attack inflicts damage > out of the Shift range? Huh... that is a good question. I always thought a nuclear bomb did Shift Z damage, from some official source somewhere, but I can't seem to locate it offhand. So, looking in the Judge's book, it describes the radiation of an A-bomb blast as Monstrous (75). Now this may just be the old-style A-bombs, and not the current, much higher yield nuc-u-lar thingers, so who knows how relevant this really is... but it may add food for thought. Now, if I could figure out where I read that 'z' rating (or determine when I made that up or something) ...hm.
Thank you Castle for explaining that to him.
DC character conversion to Marvel is one of the hardest things to do since there are no such things like Karma, Benchmarks, Death, etc. in DC heroes. Stats here are based more so on comic and reasonable playability in the current Marvel system. "It doesn't matter if I win or lose. Just as long as I pissed you off" --- Morrigian, Super Puzzle Fighter II Turbo
>>>DC character conversion to Marvel is one of the hardest things to do since there are no such things like Karma, Benchmarks, Death, etc. in DC heroes. Stats here are based more so on comic and reasonable playability in the current Marvel system.<<<
Actually, Hero Points, Villain Points, and Character Points (in WEG's DCU RPG) can be used much the same way Karma can be. --------------------- Be Ex/20 to one another!
I'm starting to suspect that the stat & power intensities could be endlessly debated. I personally feel pretty good about my stats, given what has been talked about at this point, so I'm probably going to stick to them unless somebody has a REALLY compelling argument to the contrary.
I guess the questions on my mind at this point are: - Does my Captain Marvel writeup represent the "Wisdom of Solomon" properly? Do we want to give him Hyper-Reason instead of, or in addition to, Hyper-Intuition? My gut feeling is to stick to Hyper-Intuition since that ability is more like "Wisdom" versus smarts, and Captain Marvel isn't going Reed Richards left and right in the comics. -Am I missing any of Captain Marvel's powers? I think I need to add some kind of Dimension Travel to the Rock of Eternity, but at what power rank & does it include other dimensions? I assume it is infallible...? I think this is also going to lead to a complimentary Superman writeup, since so much of the discussion has focused on getting their relative power levels to be Kosher. Which would probably open a whole other can of worms, but what the heck.
Hi Castle Bravo mate!
Maybe trying to kill Superman with a nuke is a bit like trying to kill me by throwing a really big ham sandwich at me. Hydrogen bombs are powered by the same types of fusion reactions that the sun is. He doesn't absorb shockwaves or even fire. He absorbs solar radiation. And if you mean Superman getting nuked in The Dark Knight Returns, that story is outside mainstream DC continuity. I've lost track of him getting nuked elsewhere. He gets nuked in Superman/Doomsday: Hunter/Prey. He also gets nuked on a few other occasions but they have slipped my mind. One other thing is, I don't think these translations to the Marel stat for "Fighting" are necessarily Kosher. Fighting in Marvel is supposed to reflect ability and skill, not physical power/raw speed, so Superman doesn't merit huge Fighting in my mind based on what he does in the comics. He doesn't exhibit HUGE skill/talent at fighting; he's just got so much power that it doesn't matter. LOL! On the surface I agree with you (see my thread about how Fighting and Agility should be Talents) - however in the MSH RPG, Fighting ability does actually take into account superhuman abilities - check the benchmarks. You address OMNIPOTENCE, tread carefully. |
