Fighting and Agility should be Talents

Hi all! :bounce:

I was reviewing the system and I think I see the problem with the Fighting and Agility abilities.

Instead of Agility we should have a Speed Ability. Then you would add an Agility Talent modifiers to the Speed Ability for Agility rolls.

Fighting would also use the Speed Ability to determine a hit, but you would add any Fighting Talent modifiers.

That way you don't have any confusion between Fighting Skill and Fighting Ability derived from superpowers (if you check out the benchmarks). Same thing for Agility (as in Gymnastic Prowess) and superhuman Speed.

Any comments?



You address OMNIPOTENCE, tread carefully.

Is there any part of the system you do approve of?

Don't get me wrong, you make a strong case. There are severe flaws with the system as it stands, although 'Speed' is one ability I wouldn't replace Fighting and Agility with. Coordination, maybe.

However, I find the current system, flawed as it is, playable. Easy to learn, easy to follow, and highly adaptable at any level up to about Thor.

I think I have the mindset of 'how can I enjoy this', while you've come to it thinking 'how can I make this better'.

-Wal



Surrender? What? You think this letter on my head stands for FRANCE?

Speed IS a definite boon in fighting, too someone who is able to react rapidly is going to appear more agile in a kinesthetic sense, but...

Speed is not inextricably linked to either fighting ability nor too agility as those two terms are used in MSH. Speed is a part of the equation in both cases, but only a part. Far more important than speed in both a kinesthetic sense in agility and in fighting is, as Wallace already pointed out, co-ordination, both in an over all bodily sense and in a hand to eye sense.

The reason the MSH so broadly defines Fighting and Agility is for playablility. I have to agree with Wallace here, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". Besides which, for me, it works more seamlessly and elegantly as it stands and is better visually represented by the terms presently in use and the system itself the way it stands.


G



If electricity comes from electrons; does that mean that morality comes from morons? G. Carlin

Change "Fighting" to "Reflexes" and "Agility" to "Coordination"... and you're partway to changing MSH RPG into the DCU RPG. ;-)



---------------------
Be Ex/20 to one another!

I have to agree that the game stats of fighting and agility should stay as they are, as part of the FASERIP. Everyone has some kind of natural fighting ability and agility. It may not be very good, or it may be that you are a prodigy and are a natural gymnast and/or fighter. They can be further modified by agility or fighting talents(of which there are many) on a tangent though, I have wondered about why endurance determines speed instead of agility? It seems to me that agility should determine speed, while endurance should be used to determine how long one could remain active at full speed or less? any thoughts?

warhammer out...:bow::)

Hi Warhammer,

Endurance is a rating of overall physical health, the fitness of a person and so on and since in movement we are actually talking about how fast you run it makes perfect sense. In the levels where it matters to actual movement rate they aren't talking about whether or not you easily catch colds orif you've never been sick a day in your life because the main determiner aside from health points (hit points in this regard) of Endurance is how durable you are.

Agility is mainly a measure of kinesthetic sense (grace and balance) and hand to eye co-ordination. It really doesn't have anything to do with running speed.

Now you COULD make a case for Strength (since muscle power plays a major role in fleetness of foot) instead of Endurance, but even there Endurance seems the better fit as there are men who are insanely strong who would never be considered fast.


G



If electricity comes from electrons; does that mean that morality comes from morons? G. Carlin

Hi Wallace mate!

Is there any part of the system you do approve of?

I'm a roleplaying game designer, its in my nature to try and improve any system.

Don't get me wrong, you make a strong case. There are severe flaws with the system as it stands, although 'Speed' is one ability I wouldn't replace Fighting and Agility with. Coordination, maybe.

Think about it though. It has to be Speed. Abilities have to surely be natural; whereas Talents are learnt.

This way you get the RPG down to the staple six attributes (Strength; Dexterity/Speed; Constitution/Endurance; Intelligence/Reason; Wisdom/Intuition and Charisma/Psyche). This means that it can easily parallel d20. Talents parallel Levels at one point per level perhaps.

As you and others point out; there are already modifiers for Weapon Mastery (etc.) which add to Fighting so its not complicating anything to remove the Fighting Attribute and make it a Talent which adds to the Speed Ability.

However, I find the current system, flawed as it is, playable.

True, but that doesn't mean we can't make improvements.

Easy to learn, easy to follow, and highly adaptable at any level up to about Thor.

Or beyond if you use my empirical system (above Unearthly to rate Strength and Speed).

I think I have the mindset of 'how can I enjoy this', while you've come to it thinking 'how can I make this better'.

I enjoy any rpg I play (after all you only get out what you put in to roleplaying). But when I am not playing then I do indeed think about how I could improve things.



You address OMNIPOTENCE, tread carefully.

Hi all!

For Fighting modifiers you could have something like:

Well Trained: +1 CS (eg. Beetle, She-Hulk, Silver Surfer)
Expert: +2 CS (eg. Vulture, Thing)
Master: +3 CS (eg. Swordsman, Kingpin, Daredevil)
Grandmaster: +4 CS (eg. Nick Fury, Hawkeye, Kraven, Thor, Wolverine, Hercules, Gladiator, Daredevil with Club, Red Skull)
Perfect Weapon: +5 CS (eg. Captain America; Champion; Thor with Hammer)

Any thoughts?



You address OMNIPOTENCE, tread carefully.

Do you make any difference between Fighting in hand to hand and fighting with a weapon ? For me, it was 3 differents ways : hand to hand, fight (weapon), and fire weapon.
You can make differents things with Agility, dance on a rope or defense, dodge. It's different.

Any game has species and I think you can't have everything in a system. A good system is a simple system (for me)

Vik

Hi Vik Leroy!

Do you make any difference between Fighting in hand to hand and fighting with a weapon ? For me, it was 3 differents ways : hand to hand, fight (weapon), and fire weapon.
You can make differents things with Agility, dance on a rope or defense, dodge. It's different.

Its very easy to have modifiers for different weapons (or unarmed combat). The current rules already have these.

It would be just as easy to have an all in one Agility Modifier that could be used in tandem with Speed or on its own.

Any game has species and I think you can't have everything in a system. A good system is a simple system (for me)

Indeed. With my changes the game would be simpler...I think anyway. ;-)



You address OMNIPOTENCE, tread carefully.

I haven't read this whole thread but stuff like this has come up many times before and usually it amounts to changing the names and that's about it.

Agility becomes Dexterity and yet is used exactly the same as before.


Semantics.



I like it the way it is personally.



DG X(

Marvel > DC

Hi Warlock mate!

I haven't read this whole thread but stuff like this has come up many times before and usually it amounts to changing the names and that's about it.

Agility becomes Dexterity and yet is used exactly the same as before.

Semantics.

Well I'm suggesting that Speed replaces Fighting AND Agility: both of which become Talents and therefore modifiers.

I like it the way it is personally.

I like it too, but theres always room for improvement.

I still hope one day they bring back this system...and let me make a few tweaks to it. ;-)

I was also thinking it would be a good idea to release a special issue of every Marvel Comic with full bios of all that comics major characters (without potential spoilers obviously). This would be a good idea to get people who played the game to delve deeper into some comics they might not otherwise pick up. Vice versa it would also serve to get comic readers interested in the game, and would even bring new readers up to speed on the various heroes and villains.



You address OMNIPOTENCE, tread carefully.

Well by doing what you proposed, you run into problems.

First, changing Agility to Speed Changes the system entirely.

For one, Agility doesn't always infer how fast a person can move. It more or less is how well the person can contort him or herself in over to move in any direction at any given time. Speed is always a factor of agility and not the other way around. Physics states that perfectly.

Secondly, fighting in terms of speed is incorrect too. Fighting should only be refered to the likelihood through technique of a character to hit a target. Speed again is a component of this and not the determining factor of how a person fights.

It seems what you are proposing is similar to DC heroes which gets confusing. Speed in most cases does not cover reflexes, techinque, direction, etc. to warrant such a change in MSH. It is just too vague of an idea to be considered for all practical application in human/superhuman motion.

Granted, most comics don't not follow real science....but RPG are set up this way (to mimic the real world first and then the genre that is geared toward).

Hope this helps.



"It doesn't matter if I win or lose. Just as long as I pissed you off" --- Morrigian, Super Puzzle Fighter II Turbo

>>>Granted, most comics don't not follow real science....but RPG are set up this way (to mimic the real world first and then the genre that is geared toward). <<<

Dwah?! I'd always thought it was the other way 'round.



---------------------
Be Ex/20 to one another!

Hi Silverbolt mate!

Well by doing what you proposed, you run into problems.

I don't see any, other than the obvious fact of having to change the current rules.

First, changing Agility to Speed Changes the system entirely.

Yes, but for the better.

For one, Agility doesn't always infer how fast a person can move.

Exactly my point. Agility is a Talent, not an innate ability! Same with Fighting.

It more or less is how well the person can contort him or herself in over to move in any direction at any given time.

Precisely.

Speed is always a factor of agility and not the other way around. Physics states that perfectly.

I don't see how you can state that. Agility is ALWAYS relative to Speed.

Secondly, fighting in terms of speed is incorrect too. Fighting should only be refered to the likelihood through technique of a character to hit a target. Speed again is a component of this and not the determining factor of how a person fights.

Exactly! My point is that Speed is the basis for any attack. On top of Speed we add Fighting Talent.

By making these adjustments we can get away from the current confusion surrounding the Fighting Ability - take one look at the Fighting Table Benchmarks.

It seems what you are proposing is similar to DC heroes which gets confusing.

Speed in most cases does not cover reflexes, techinque, direction, etc.

Well it certainly can cover reflexes! Technique and direction are seem to me to be something learnt rather than innate.

to warrant such a change in MSH.

To be honest I don't forsee many, if any, adopting my ideas (given the amount of changes this would necessitate). But I see it as more food for thought when the system is eventually officially updated. Whenever that is.

It is just too vague of an idea to be considered for all practical application in human/superhuman motion.

I don't agree. Speed would cover ALL innate movement. To that you can add the Fighting Talent (Combat Offense) and the Agility Talent (Combat Defense and Miscellaneous Applications like Tightrope Walking etc.)

Granted, most comics don't not follow real science....but RPG are set up this way (to mimic the real world first and then the genre that is geared toward).

The problem is that the MSH applications of Fighting and Agility are completely nonsensical! I mean the idea that the Hulk has a better chance of connecting a blow than Spiderman is totally ludicrous!

Hope this helps.

I enjoy the discussion mate!



You address OMNIPOTENCE, tread carefully.

Upper_Krust wrote:

> Hi Silverbolt mate!
>
> Well by doing what you proposed, you run into problems.
>
> I don't see any, other than the obvious fact of having to
> change the current rules.
>
> First, changing Agility to Speed Changes the system entirely.
>
> Yes, but for the better.
>
> For one, Agility doesn't always infer how fast a person can
> move.
>
> Exactly my point. Agility is a Talent, not an innate
> ability! Same with Fighting.
>


Agility is not a talent.....It an Inate ability that everyone has. However a person moves or bend had nothing to do with Speed.


> It more or less is how well the person can contort him or
> herself in over to move in any direction at any given time.
>
> Precisely.
>
> Speed is always a factor of agility and not the other way
> around. Physics states that perfectly.
>
> I don't see how you can state that. Agility is ALWAYS
> relative to Speed.
>

Speed in physical terms does not have direction and is a quantative number!!!!! Agility infers to the ability movement in all directions. Speed is a factor of Agility due to which direction or part of the body is moving. It the basic difference of scalar and vector. Speed is ALWAYS scalar while agility is not. If this was not true, the the laws of physics would not hold at all.

> Secondly, fighting in terms of speed is incorrect too. Fighting
> should only be refered to the likelihood through technique of a
> character to hit a target. Speed again is a component of this
> and not the determining factor of how a person fights.
>
> Exactly! My point is that Speed is the basis for any attack.
> On top of Speed we add Fighting Talent.
>

No, it is technique (ie leverage, some aspect of speed, momentum, etc.) Again, I see you point on speed. However, it is not the only reason why an attack lands.



> By making these adjustments we can get away from the current
> confusion surrounding the Fighting Ability - take one look at
> the Fighting Table Benchmarks.
>
> It seems what you are proposing is similar to DC heroes which
> gets confusing.
>
> Speed in most cases does not cover reflexes, techinque,
> direction, etc.
>
> Well it certainly can cover reflexes! Technique and
> direction are seem to me to be something learnt rather than
> innate.
>
> to warrant such a change in MSH.
>

I disagree there. There are some people who has this ability innately. Also, you can't teach a person how to "SPEED" up in a sense after training. It the normal extent in which a body can move aka reflexes.

> To be honest I don't forsee many, if any, adopting my ideas
> (given the amount of changes this would necessitate). But I see
> it as more food for thought when the system is eventually
> officially updated. Whenever that is.
>
> It is just too vague of an idea to be considered for all
> practical application in human/superhuman motion.
>
> I don't agree. Speed would cover ALL innate movement. To
> that you can add the Fighting Talent (Combat Offense) and the
> Agility Talent (Combat Defense and Miscellaneous Applications
> like Tightrope Walking etc.)
>

Speed does not explain involuntary actions like blinking, flintching, coughing, etc. These action are reflex actions and not dependant on speed. Physics and Kinematics proves this to be true.

> Granted, most comics don't not follow real science....but RPG
> are set up this way (to mimic the real world first and then the
> genre that is geared toward).
>
> The problem is that the MSH applications of Fighting and
> Agility are completely nonsensical! I mean the idea that the
> Hulk has a better chance of connecting a blow than Spiderman is
> totally ludicrous!
>

It really depends on how you look at the problem. Spiderman can hit Hulk multiple times due to speed. However, Hulk is the bigger of the two and would cover move area in a punch than Spider-man. Basis of this is momentum. Again, Physics proves this.


> Hope this helps.
>
> I enjoy the discussion mate!
>

I hope this help you more than the earlier post.



&quot;It doesn't matter if I win or lose. Just as long as I pissed you off&quot; --- Morrigian, Super Puzzle Fighter II Turbo

Hi Silverbolt mate!

Agility is not a talent.....

Amongst humanoids it is.

It an Inate ability that everyone has.

I disagree. Anything better than typical agility is learnt - simple as that!

However a person moves or bend had nothing to do with Speed.

When Neo dodges the bullets in the Matrix thats normal Human Agility coupled with superhuman Speed.

Speed in physical terms does not have direction and is a quantative number!!!!! Agility infers to the ability movement in all directions.

Speed is a factor of Agility due to which direction or part of the body is moving. It the basic difference of scalar and vector. Speed is ALWAYS scalar while agility is not. If this was not true, the the laws of physics would not hold at all.

But we already know basic humanoid movement. So that becomes an irrelevance. What I am talking about is learnt Agility versus innate Speed.

No, it is technique (ie leverage, some aspect of speed, momentum, etc.) Again, I see you point on speed. However, it is not the only reason why an attack lands.

I agree. But Speed is the basis for all attacks. Anything beyond that is Learnt. In the Spiderman movie, when Peter is attacked by the school bully (Flash Thompson?) he can avoid his attacks easily because of the Speed difference.

I disagree there. There are some people who has this ability innately.

Examples?

Also, you can't teach a person how to "SPEED" up in a sense after training. It the normal extent in which a body can move aka reflexes.

Exactly!!!! SPEED is innate! AGILITY is learnt!

Don't get bogged down in the semantics of the name: Speed; Reflexes whatever you want to call it, we are dealing with the difference between something Innate (the ability) and something Learnt (the talent).

Speed does not explain involuntary actions like blinking, flintching, coughing, etc. These action are reflex actions and not dependant on speed. Physics and Kinematics proves this to be true.

Examples of people with fast speed and slow reflexes?

It really depends on how you look at the problem. Spiderman can hit Hulk multiple times due to speed. However, Hulk is the bigger of the two and would cover move area in a punch than Spider-man. Basis of this is momentum. Again, Physics proves this.

So you are saying Hulk is a better Fighter than Spiderman because of his reach - thats just nonsensical. Spiderman is many times faster than the Hulk. The Hulks momentum is going to work against him as much as it will for him.

I hope this help you more than the earlier post.

I appreciate the interest mate.



You address OMNIPOTENCE, tread carefully.

>>>I disagree. Anything better than typical agility is learnt - simple as that!<<<

My experience tells me completely otherwise. I've MANY known people in the martial arts (both in Tae Kwon Do and Jujitus) and in various sports that were massively more agile than others of the same training. From preteen years onward I've been involved in everything from football (American style) to tennis to boxing to you name it an I've seen exactly the opposite to be true.

>>>When Neo dodges the bullets in the Matrix thats normal Human Agility coupled with superhuman Speed.<<<

Wrong! The faster man who has ever lived can not begin to move in the ways that Neo was, but I can show you an 80 year old man who no longer has any degree of speed that I can't put to shame who CAN get into the positions and angles that Neo used dodging those bullets without loosing his balance. THAT is kinesthetic sense and THAT is subsumed in Marvel by the term Agility (and is far closer to being the dictionary definition of agility than speed is.) What was shown in the Matrix was both supernatural speed and agility. One or the other by itself would never have managed it at the levels shown.

>>>But we already know basic humanoid movement.<<<

That becomes debatable, obviously, if you really think that speed allows you to bend over backwards without loosing balance.

>>>So that becomes an irrelevance. What I am talking about is learnt Agility versus innate Speed.<<<

Speed is everybit as much a trained ability as agility is. That is why you'll find speed bags in almost every boxing gymnasium (and many martial arts taining facilities nowadays if they rely at all on hand speed) world wide. It is also the reason that any martial artist or boxer who intends to compete, even if he's slower than molassis in January normally, trains for speed.

Actually, of the two and from long experience, I'd say that agility is FAR more the innate, in born ability of the two.

>>>I agree. But Speed is the basis for all attacks.<<<

That is not in the LEAST accurate. It is the basis for MANY hand and limb striking techniques and for a few (very few) grappling techniques, but not all of even hand or limb striking techniques. "Power punches" whih are a mainstay of MANY martial arts, rely NOT on speed, but on precision of placement and developed and continuous force. I've seen brick shattering blows that moved so relatively (relatively mind you) slowly that it was possible to see the hand completely unblurred in it's full movement.

The power punching technique I was taught, for instance, did not rely on speed whatever. It relied on concentration, control of the angle of the hand as it impacts on the target, following completely through the blow and focusing the mind on acheiving the desired effect.

Too, there are several grappling techniques that are entirely centered on using the opponents speed to entrap them. They actually work better against a quick striking attack than against a slower, power focused attack.

>>>Anything beyond that is Learnt. In the Spiderman movie, when Peter is attacked by the school bully (Flash Thompson?) he can avoid his attacks easily because of the Speed difference.<<<

And when I got mugged in Germany last year I relied on a technque that had nothing to do with speed. Both of those guys were younger, faster and nastier than I was, but they were the ones upside down in the alley in short order. Speed had ZERO to do with it.

>>>Also, you can't teach a person how to "SPEED" up in a sense after training. It the normal extent in which a body can move aka reflexes.<<<

Silver, that is completely inaccurate. Speed is easily trainable. Reaction times is easily improvable with training. That is a central premis in Shotokan and a few other Karate'forms.

Finally, guys, Hulkie doesn't need to be a better fighter than Spidey. I garauntee you they don't bother to show the number of blows thrown or landed in the panels of a comic book fight. When Hulkie hits you once it's an order of magntude nastier than when Spidey does. In a fight with Spidey they might well show several times as many onnections and still be showing less than the differential.

Fighting in a comic book game doesn't detail EVERY blow. The turns in Marvel are six seconds long. I personally, and I'm not a world class fighter by any means, can land eight to ten good solid blows in a flurry in six seconds. Bruce Lee could supposedly land six kicks in under two seconds (so 18+ in six seconds). See the point?



G



Post Edited (02-04-04 10:56)

If electricity comes from electrons; does that mean that morality comes from morons? G. Carlin

Upper_Krust wrote:

> Hi Silverbolt mate!
>
> Agility is not a talent.....
>
> Amongst humanoids it is.
>

Again, it is not. I disagree with that due to physiology of the human body.

> It an Inate ability that everyone has.
>
> I disagree. Anything better than typical agility is learnt -
> simple as that!
>
> However a person moves or bend had nothing to do with Speed.
>
> When Neo dodges the bullets in the Matrix thats normal Human
> Agility coupled with superhuman Speed.
>

First of all, this is a bad example. Neo was in what was though to be reality (a computer program) and not in a real world scenerio. His agility nor speed in real world were not altered. Only the relationship to the concept of what he percieved to movement was altered. Yes, he felt pain, happy, etc. in that scenerio. However, it was a direct link to his brain in those scenerios versus his innate ability.


> Speed in physical terms does not have direction and is a
> quantative number!!!!! Agility infers to the ability movement
> in all directions.
>
> Speed is a factor of Agility due to which direction or part of
> the body is moving. It the basic difference of scalar and
> vector. Speed is ALWAYS scalar while agility is not. If this
> was not true, the the laws of physics would not hold at all.
>
> But we already know basic humanoid movement. So that becomes
> an irrelevance. What I am talking about is learnt Agility
> versus innate Speed.
>

Agility is not learnt talent in the means that you are trying to use it. For example, It would take some teaching to learn ballet movement, martial arts kata, etc. But those movement are not depended on 100% speed. Better example, take a baby when it tries to walk for the first time. It is not speed that guides them. It is the flexibility and strength of the baby's leg muscles to get them to stand, balance, and bend. A baby's innate speed does not come into effect until those things mention (AKA agility) is perfected.

Now from what you are saying, Agility only become a talent when and only when you look at specific technique. For example, to perform a capoiera roll, you would need to learn which body part to bend and move and that what speed to acheive this feat. However, it is a specified feat not something that is common to all.

> No, it is technique (ie leverage, some aspect of speed,
> momentum, etc.) Again, I see you point on speed. However, it is
> not the only reason why an attack lands.
>
> I agree. But Speed is the basis for all attacks. Anything
> beyond that is Learnt. In the Spiderman movie, when Peter is
> attacked by the school bully (Flash Thompson?) he can avoid his
> attacks easily because of the Speed difference.
>

Speed is not the basis for all attack. Speed is a factor (again, physics states this). Using your example, Peter would also need to be agile enough to move the proper body groups to move away instead of towards the attack. I do agree speed difference does help but it was the only thing that caused Peter to avoid the attack.

> I disagree there. There are some people who has this ability
> innately.
>
> Examples?
>

I apologize for using DC references here but the Flash (all of them) is a prime example. People who has their type of speed must in some form or fashion has some innate ability to manuever. For instance Wally when tapping into the speed force has to know which muscle group to control in order to a move left , move right, stop, back up , etc.. Not only that, his innate strength of those muscles and skeleton have to be strong enough to withstand the stress of moving at that speed in which he is traveling


> Also, you can't teach a person how to "SPEED" up in a sense
> after training. It the normal extent in which a body can move
> aka reflexes.
>
> Exactly!!!! SPEED is innate! AGILITY is learnt!
>
> Don't get bogged down in the semantics of the name: Speed;
> Reflexes whatever you want to call it, we are dealing with the
> difference between something Innate (the ability) and something
> Learnt (the talent).
>

I agree. I think that alot of this discussion is semantics versus "Innate versus Learnt."

> Speed does not explain involuntary actions like blinking,
> flintching, coughing, etc. These action are reflex actions and
> not dependant on speed. Physics and Kinematics proves this to
> be true.
>
> Examples of people with fast speed and slow reflexes?
>

Any one who clumpsy fits this. They can be very fast. But due reflexes being slow or uncoordinated, they could not take full advantage of their speed.


> It really depends on how you look at the problem. Spiderman can
> hit Hulk multiple times due to speed. However, Hulk is the
> bigger of the two and would cover move area in a punch than
> Spider-man. Basis of this is momentum. Again, Physics proves
> this.
>
> So you are saying Hulk is a better Fighter than Spiderman
> because of his reach - thats just nonsensical. Spiderman is
> many times faster than the Hulk. The Hulks momentum is going to
> work against him as much as it will for him.
>

I am not saying that at all. I am saying that since Hulk is bigger than spiderman, his likelihood of hitting a target is greater due to momentum. Spiderman, on the other hand, is more agile and faster. This will allow him to hit a target multiple times versus the typical one time. My comment was more on the fact of why Hulk could hit spidey not who is the better fighter. I agree Spider-man is the better fighter of the two. However with his speed advantage, spidey's agility may not be great enough to keep him from getting hit from the Hulk.


I hope this help you more than the earlier post.



&quot;It doesn't matter if I win or lose. Just as long as I pissed you off&quot; --- Morrigian, Super Puzzle Fighter II Turbo

Agility, a inate thing. everyone has a certaian ammount of agility, and even training may not allow you to improve it(maybe because you have a bent spine, or limited movement in yourjoints, or something physical like that.). some have a greater degree of flexibility, such as a gymnast that uses the balance beam, or someone that practices yoga. these each can be done by almost, but not all, people. some are better, because their INNATE ABILITY OF AGILITY is better or worse than others. Training will only take you as far as your body will allow, after this you simply end up hurting yourself. But, agility can for most people benifit from training. Agility not only works on the flexibility and suppleness of the character, but should also act on things like balance, which everyone has, some moreso than others, but can be improved with training.
It seems fairly simple to me, agility is like strength, and endurance, both are things almost everyone has to varying degrees based on the individual, and both can be improved in most cases by training. IE... agility is a ability and not a talent.
Yoga IS a talent, one which would allow you to modify your ability of agility.

but maybe we could use a speed rating? I am open to this.

warhammer out...:hot: