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(Revised) Empirical Rank Table
Posted by Upper_Krust
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Hi all!
Sorry I haven't been posting for the past few days. This is for the people who wondered about how I managed to get a consistent numerical explanation for the intensity tables. It does require some minor changes to the middle ranks so it won't be to everyones taste, but I'll post it anyway and you can all let me know what you think: I'll use Strength as an example Shift-0 = 1/100th Ton (although we can simply make that 0) Feeble = 70 lbs Poor = 120 lbs Typical = 170 lbs Good = 1/10th Ton (220 lbs) Excellent = 880 lbs Remarkable = 1540lbs Incredible = 1 Ton Amazing = 5 Tons Monstrous = 10 Tons Unearthly = 100 Tons Shift-X = 1000 Tons Shift-Y = 1E5 Tons Shift-Z = 1E8 Tons Class 1000 = 1E12 Tons Class 3000 = 1E17 Tons Class 5000 = 1E23 Tons (Planet) Class 10,000 = 1E30 Tons (Star) Class 30,000 = 1E38 Tons (Galaxy) Class 50,000 = 1E47 Tons (Universe) Beyond The trick is to start at Unearthly; for strength every rank less is one tenth and every rank above is times ten. However there is a catch. Every time you descend (after the first) a rank (from UN/100) you add an additional rank in between (add one rank between the second division of ten, add two ranks between the third division of ten). eg. Instead of going down from 100; 10; 1; 1/10, you add one rank between 10 and 1, then you add two ranks between 1 and 1/10. Every time you ascend a rank (from UN/100) you remove an additional rank in between. eg. So instead of going 100; 1000; 10,000; 100,000, you remove the rank between 1000 and 100,000. Now as you can see the table does deviate somewhat from the official rules notably between Incredible/Amazing/Monstrous. Although remember Monstrous covers 10-99 Tons. Any comments? You address OMNIPOTENCE, tread carefully.
Here is the Speed (Agility) table by the same method:
Unlike strength, instead of dividing/multiplying by 10 you use 3 (the square root of 10 rounded where applicable): Shift-0 = 5 mph (although we can simply make that 0) Feeble = 7 mph Poor = 10 mph Typical = 12 mph Good = 15 mph Excellent = 30 mph Remarkable = 40 mph Incredible = 50 mph Amazing = 100 mph Monstrous = 150 mph Unearthly = 500 mph (includes speed of sound) Shift-X = 1.5E3 mph Shift-Y = 1.5E4 mph Shift-Z = 5E5 mph Class 1000 = 5E7 mph (includes speed of light) Class 3000 = 1.5E10 mph (1 Light Year/Day) Class 5000 = 1.5E13 mph (1 Light Year/Two Minutes) Class 10,000 = 5E16 mph (25 Light Years/Second) Class 30,000 = 5E20 mph (250,000 Light Years/Second) Class 50,000 = 1.5E25 mph (7,500,000,000 Light Years/Second) Beyond You address OMNIPOTENCE, tread carefully.
Hey Warlock mate!
I use the Flight table for ground speeds of those with both Hyper-Running and Speed. Bumps it up without having to redo it. Plus it keeps the speed of sound accessable only to those with Shift+ stats. I quite liked the idea of Unearthly being the Speed of Sound. Incidently I am working on the Reason (IQ) Table under the same mechanic just to see what it looks like. Test research #1 suggests that people like Mr Fantastic and Dr Doom have IQs in the range of 375. However I don't think IQ scales in a linear fashion but rather has some sort of dwindling return. Test research #2 suggests its more like IQ 200 for Mr Fantastic, which would make him one in a billion intellects. I'll have it figured eventually. You address OMNIPOTENCE, tread carefully.
Well, the MSHAG broke Intellect down to IQ #'s, so converting to MSH RPG, you get:
Fb/2 == IQ 25 Pr/4 == IQ 50 Ty/6 == IQ 75 Gd/10 == IQ 100 Ex/20 == IQ 150 Rm/30 == IQ 200 In/40 == IQ 250 Am/50 == IQ 300 Mn/75 == IQ 375 Un/100 == IQ 450 ShX/150 == IQ 500+ ShY/300 == IQ 500+ ShZ/500 == IQ 500+ C1000 == off the charts C3000 == off the charts C5000 == off the charts The overwhelming majority of the people who test such things agree that Johann Wolfgang von Goethe would have an approximate IQ of 210 and would be considered to have the higest IQ of any known person. --------------------- Be Ex/20 to one another!
I should have somewhere an IQ chart that somebody did, probably on the mailing list way back. One idea was to assign IQ numbers to the ranks but stop at AM Reason because AM is the maximum a normal human can attain. An IQ for higher reasons would be hard to determine. Just some thoughts on the subject I remember from back in the day.
MSH Classic RPG System [rivendell.fortunecity.com]
Hi Dr Archeville mate!
Thanks for that table. From my preliminary research its seems as though the Typical IQ is between 90 and 110. Then every approximate increase of ten points above that means you are in the top ten percent of that group. ie. 120 IQ = 1 in 10 people 130 IQ = 1 in 100 people (pass Mensa) 140 IQ = 1 in 1000 people 150 IQ = 1 in 10,000 people 160 IQ = 1 in 100,000 people 170 IQ = 1 in 1 million people (pass Mega Test) 180 IQ = 1 in 10 million people 190 IQ = 1 in 100 million people 200 IQ = 1 in 1 billion people (pass Giga Test) 210 IQ = 1 in 10 billion people (smartest human in the world) 220 IQ = 1 in 100 billion people (smartest human ever) The overwhelming majority of the people who test such things agree that Johann Wolfgang von Goethe would have an approximate IQ of 210 and would be considered to have the higest IQ of any known person. Thats only until I pass the Giga Test with a perfect score and get 220. You address OMNIPOTENCE, tread carefully.
The problem with this is that IQ doesn't really work as an accurate measure of cognitive ability. I mean, when I was fourteen, I had tests done, and I scored an IQ of 146. If you had asked anyone who knew me at the time, they'd have said I was slow-witted, academically hopeless, and basically stupid. Since then, of course, I've completed full education up to BA, but along the way I've met a lot of people who would test lower than me but, in real world terms, are smarter than me. IQ alone just measures basic brainpower, and proficiency at IQ tests. Actual intelligence is a matter of application and attitude as much as whatever it is IQ tests actually test, as it were.
The Reason score has to take education and experience in to consideration, as well as potential. It quite simply can't be based solely on IQ, because IQ is not a reliable figure. -Wal Surrender? What? You think this letter on my head stands for FRANCE?
Hi tystates mate!
I should have somewhere an IQ chart that somebody did, probably on the mailing list way back. That would be interesting to see. One idea was to assign IQ numbers to the ranks but stop at AM Reason because AM is the maximum a normal human can attain. An IQ for higher reasons would be hard to determine. Well I think I have an idea or two how to rate it. I'll post those a little later. Just some thoughts on the subject I remember from back in the day. You address OMNIPOTENCE, tread carefully.
Hi everyone!
Here is the IQ List using my revised Empirical table: Shift-0 = 60 (although we can simply make that 0) Feeble = 75 Poor = 90 Typical = 105 Good = 120 Excellent = 140 Remarkable = 160 Incredible = 180 Amazing = 210 Monstrous = 240 Unearthly = 300 Shift-X = 360 Shift-Y = 480 Shift-Z = 660 Class 1000 = 900 Class 3000 = 1200 Class 5000 = 1560 Class 10,000 = 1980 Class 30,000 = 2460 Class 50,000 = 3000 Beyond Instead of using a tenfold multiplier as a base (like the strength chart) I instead used a flat increase of +60. You address OMNIPOTENCE, tread carefully.
UK, I like the thought you've put forth, and maybe even at the absolute upper levels of Marvel there could be (I don't think there needs to be one, but that's just my opinion) a reason for an exapnsion of the Class charts... this would be especially possible since were told in the rule books that the Class charts and the rest of the system doesn't directly interact, but...
I've got to be honest... it's like DC-Mayfair in Marvel. Everyone under 100 tons lift cap becomes, to all intents and purposes, identical. Suddenly we have no real difference between Spiderman and Namor and that makes no sense whatever. Just to list a few that have no business being there that are now all in your version of the Monstrous strength category, according to the non-RPG stats given them in the Official Guidebook to the Marvel Universe; we go from Beetle, Captain Mar- Vell to Spiderman. So, suddenly now, we have the Beetle bending an eleven inch thick secondary admantium bar on a red feat. WTF? She Hulk and PileDriver (of the old Wrecking Crew) are suddenly the same strength? Hey, this new table, while admirably suited in some respects to the cosmic entities, is absolutely awful when applied to the majority of the normal superheroes that make the Marvel Universe so much more enjoyable than the twink fest DC universe. G If electricity comes from electrons; does that mean that morality comes from morons? G. Carlin
Hi Gerrod mate!
UK, I like the thought you've put forth, and maybe even at the absolute upper levels of Marvel there could be (I don't think there needs to be one, but that's just my opinion) a reason for an exapnsion of the Class charts... this would be especially possible since were told in the rule books that the Class charts and the rest of the system doesn't directly interact, but... I'll take that as a compliment. I've got to be honest... it's like DC-Mayfair in Marvel. Everyone under 100 tons lift cap becomes, to all intents and purposes, identical. Suddenly we have no real difference between Spiderman and Namor and that makes no sense whatever. Yes the only apparent failing of the strength table is right smack dab in the middle of where 75% of all Marvel Characters have their listed strength. Just my luck. Just to list a few that have no business being there that are now all in your version of the Monstrous strength category, according to the non-RPG stats given them in the Official Guidebook to the Marvel Universe; I have some of those books including book ten which has the strength table. we go from Beetle, Captain Mar- Vell to Spiderman. Well Beetle can only lift 1000lbs so he wouldn't have more than Remarkable strength. Captain Mar-Vell (with Nega Bands) and Spiderman can both lift ten tons. So, suddenly now, we have the Beetle bending an eleven inch thick secondary admantium bar on a red feat. WTF? I take your point although one of us is wrong about the Beetle? She Hulk and PileDriver (of the old Wrecking Crew) are suddenly the same strength? Indeed, its an unacceptable position to have the likes of Spiderman in the same strength class as the Thing. Hey, this new table, while admirably suited in some respects to the cosmic entities, is absolutely awful when applied to the majority of the normal superheroes that make the Marvel Universe so much more enjoyable than the twink fest DC universe. I am currently at a loss as to how to solve the problem while maintaining the empirical system yet keeping the rank progression unchanged. For example you can simply move the centre rank (where you start the ascension and descent of the empirical system) from Unearthly to Shift-X. That means you add one rank in between 10 tons and 100 tons. However to maintain consistency we need to then add two ranks in between 1 ton and 10 tons; three ranks between 1/10th ton and 1 ton. So its not really a disirable solution. Nevertheless I'll keep working on it and see what transpires. You address OMNIPOTENCE, tread carefully.
The Reason score has to take education and experience in to consideration, as well as potential. It quite simply can't be based solely on IQ, because IQ is not a reliable figure.
I agree %100. Yes it can be used as one of the many factors used to determine someone's overall level of intellect, but I agree in that too many people put way too much stock in IQ scores alone. DG X( Marvel > DC
To be honest, the structure of all scales on this thread are very valid and usable. However, in theory, most of the feats in MSH will not go beyond Shift X.
If you truly think about it, how often do you see a cosmic being trying to lift a solar system..... in Marvel....... Very Rarely if at that. The current (original) scale other than the fact of the true difference between Monstrous and Unearthly. However, your scale dues allow for greater compatibility when people play DCHeroes on the MSH format. I do agree that this will help with their uber character (pre crisis) when it comes to feats. As far as intellegence, an accurate measure can not be determined due to experience. Experience can show more than average book knowledge in any situation. It just that people tend to be more impressed with book knowledge than experience. I believe that the scale that you proposed needs work. IQ will not cut it due to which scale you are working from and at what age that the score was taken. This is something that I remember from my "gifted" classes in Junior and Senior High School.....(Yes, I was in those nerd classes due to Genius IQ level...Ironically enough, my first true mensa test didn't happen until I was 13.) Anyway, Intellegence is hard to gauge on a scale like Marvel...or any RPG. Overall, I think your idea is good and well thought out. Just has a few bugs in it. "It doesn't matter if I win or lose. Just as long as I pissed you off" --- Morrigian, Super Puzzle Fighter II Turbo
Hi Silverbolt mate!
To be honest, the structure of all scales on this thread are very valid and usable. However, in theory, most of the feats in MSH will not go beyond Shift X. True, but that doesn't mean that above Shift X everything has to become 'vague' all of a sudden. If you truly think about it, how often do you see a cosmic being trying to lift a solar system..... in Marvel....... Very Rarely if at that. Well the Magus did rip that Star in half. The current (original) scale other than the fact of the true difference between Monstrous and Unearthly. However, your scale dues allow for greater compatibility when people play DCHeroes on the MSH format. I do agree that this will help with their uber character (pre crisis) when it comes to feats. Yes I was arguing something along these lines on the JLA*Avengers Forum over at DCs website. I was able to determine the upper limits for (Our Worlds At War) Superman (who was obviously a bit different from the stats given him on this website which are, I am sure admittedly, contrived); Wonder Woman; Doomsday; Imperiex and a few others. As far as intellegence, an accurate measure can not be determined due to experience. Experience can show more than average book knowledge in any situation. It just that people tend to be more impressed with book knowledge than experience. I believe that the scale that you proposed needs work. IQ will not cut it due to which scale you are working from and at what age that the score was taken. True, but most superheroes are 18+ This is something that I remember from my "gifted" classes in Junior and Senior High School.....(Yes, I was in those nerd classes due to Genius IQ level...Ironically enough, my first true mensa test didn't happen until I was 13.) Anyway, Intellegence is hard to gauge on a scale like Marvel...or any RPG. I think a lot of the people who play roleplaying games are generally fairly intelligent. Overall, I think your idea is good and well thought out. Just has a few bugs in it. The strength aspect between Incredible and Monstrous is a bit of a stumbling block for total perfection I must admit. You address OMNIPOTENCE, tread carefully.
Hi all!
Okay here is the new table. I have taken on board Gerrods suggestion that there are not enough 'human range' ranks. Ostensibly its the same above Unearthly. There are four new ranks below Unearthly; and three new Class ranks (as before): Considerable CO/8 Outstanding OU/15 Brilliant BR/25 Wonderful WO/60 Class 10,000 Class 30,000 Class 50,000 A few of the others are tweaked to fit the empirical progression. New Empirical Table Shift-0 = 1/100th Ton (although we can simply make that 0) Feeble = 50 lbs Poor = 100 lbs Typical = 150 lbs CO/8 Considerable = 200 lbs Good = 275 lbs OU/15 Outstanding = 550 lbs Excellent = 1100 BR/25 Brilliant = 1650 lbs Remarkable = 1 Ton Incredible = 4 Tons Amazing = 7 Tons WO/60 Wonderful = 10 Tons MO/80 Monstrous = 50 Tons Unearthly = 100 Tons Shift-X = 1000 Tons Shift-Y = 1E5 Tons Shift-Z = 1E8 Tons Class 1000 = 1E12 Tons Class 3000 = 1E17 Tons Class 5000 = 1E23 Tons (Planet) Class 10,000 = 1E30 Tons (Star) Class 30,000 = 1E38 Tons (Galaxy) Class 50,000 = 1E47 Tons (Universe) Beyond Only the following characters (according to my Official Marvel Handbook) are 'losing' anything from Monstrous changing from 75 to 50 Tons. Wonderman (95 Ton limit) - we can easily make him Unearthly Ulik (95 Ton limit) - we can easily make him Unearthly Orka (90 Ton limit out of water) - out of water stays Monstrous (-1 rank) Sub Mariner (85 Ton limit in water) - in water stays Monstrous (+1 rank) Tiger Shark (80 Ton limit in water) - in water stays Monstrous (+1 rank) Hyperion (supposedly 75 Ton limit) - surely this should be Unearthly!? She-Hulk (75 Ton limit) - stays Monstrous Thing (85 Ton limit) Titania (85 Ton limit) Sandman (85 Ton limit) Box (85 Ton limit) These last four are the only characters I am not sure what to do with. Obviously Monstrous strength would now be 50-99 tons (so their lifting capacity is still covered). Here is how the empirical system works. Above Unearthly every rank increases by a further x10 S-X = UN x10 S-Y = S-X x100 S-Z = S-Y x1000 CL 1000 = S-Z x10,000 CL 3000 = CL 1000 x100,000 CL 5000 = CL 3000 x1,000,000 CL 10,000 = CL 5000 x10,000,000 CL 30,000 = CL 10,000 x100,000,000 CL 50,000 = CL 30,000 x1,000,000,000 Beyond = CL 50,000 x10,000,000,000 to Infinity Below Unearthly instead of skipping factors of ten with each increase you add an additional rank between each division of ten. MO (1 rank added between 100 Tons and 10 Tons) WO = UN x1/10 AM & IN (2 ranks added between 10 Tons and 1 Ton) RM = UN x1/100 BR & EX & OU = (3 ranks between 1 Ton and 1/10th Ton) GD = UN x1/1000 CO & TY & PR & FE (4 ranks between 1/10th Ton and 1/100th Ton) Disclaimers 1. This table was created to see if I could design a logical math based strength progression, primarily to justify the changes I do advocate above Unearthly. 2. I do not advocate that people set about implementing the above table (not below Unearthly at any rate). It is simply food for thought, showing one possible way you could create an empirical table. Any comments? You address OMNIPOTENCE, tread carefully. |
