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Graviton & Black Holes
Posted by Dr Archeville
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Simple enough question -- could Dr. Franklin Hall, a.k.a. Graviton, create a mini-black hole inside someone? That is, Insteead of pumelling them with gravitiv force bolts from the outside (and having to get by any power armor, force field, body resistances, etc.), could he generate intense gravitic forces inside someone for a microsecond, causing them to implode (and bypassing any external defenses)?
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Considering that the entire premise of Graviton's power is science fiction plain and simple my answer is: why not? The fact that he can just "create" gravity out of nowhere is precedent enough to allow just about anything.
The only thing is I don't know what would constitute a "mini" black hole. Technically, any amount of mass can become a black hole if it is compressed into a high enough density. That is "technically", all known "observable" black holes are collapsed stars. The typical stellar black hole has a mass of about 10^{31} kilograms, or ten times our Sun. The radius of the hole (center to event horizon) is directly proportional to its mass. The typical example above would have a radius of 30 kilometers. "HOWEVER!" A black hole is a concentration of mass so dense that not even light can escape it, IOW, its event horizon is expanding at the speed of light. Therefore, even if a "mini" black hole was nano-sized it would inhale the entire solar system in a little bit more than 4 hours. Besides, the actual black hole is a singularity point so I don't think you could make it smaller. All that being said, the idea is cool so do it. It isn't any less crazy or inaccurate than living beings flyng at the speed of light or anything moving faster than light. If you really want to be precise and stat the gravity of a black hole I'd say you would have to make it CL5000. Period. A small one would @#$%& slap the Sun in no time, and the Sun cranks out 77 billion megatons of energy every second. That is 15,400,000 times as much explosive power than is needed to push Earth into a nuclear winter! Of course...the equations of general relativity are just as "legitimate" when the flow of time is reversed. Although it is impossible for us to experience in real life, you would be mathematically sound if a character tried to create a "white hole" by reversing time. Players can be tricky like that. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Build a man a fire and he will be warm for a night. Set a man on fire, and he will be warm the rest of his life
Kaz, this is great. The physics of black holes and other stellar phenomena have always fascinated me, and now I know I can ask you about stuff! So let me give you a short list of questions for you, if that's OK...
(1) What exactly is the event horizon? Can you avoid being sucked into the black hole if you can orbit the event horizon at the speed of light? (2) Binary's powers are based on the physics of a white hole (I seem to recall the OHOTMU describing a white hole as an aperture where all of the energies drawn into a black hole are emitted back into the Universe). What can you tell me about white holes? Are they only theoretical phenomena? (3) What about wormholes? Are they only theoretical phenomena? Thanks, and sorry about all the questions!
The Event Horizon of a black Hole is the point at which the gravitational attraction of the "hole" is so great the light cannot escape it.
White Holes are, as far as I know, pure Science Fantasy/Fiction. Wormholes are purely theoretical (as far as I know). It is "a hypothetical structure of space-time envisioned as a long thin tunnel connecting points that are separated in space and time" (definition from Merriam-Webster Online). Oh, and I don't think Graviton "creates" gravity, just manipulate the gravity already thre (much like Magneto manipulating but not generating magnetic fields). Of course, since gravity is EVERYWHERE (except in a pure vacuum -- and outer space is not a pure vacuum), the point is somewhat moot... --------------------- Be Ex/20 to one another!
Thanks for the explanations, doc. A couple of follow up questions: according to Kaz, the event horizon is expanding at the speed of light. Does he mean the range of a black hole's gravitational field is constantly expanding? That seems odd--and counterintuitive. Assuming the event horizon is not growing larger, can you avoid being sucked into the black hole's gravitational field by orbiting the event horizon at the speed of light? What do scientists theorize happens to the matter/energy that is sucked into the black hole's gravity well? I know that a white hole is one theoretical explanation. Are there others? And finally, is the existence of white holes necessary to account for the mass or structure of the universe, or is it totally theoretical, with no basis or rationale that supports their existence?
Well I think the thing to remember is how fair is it to give anyone, much less a villian, the power to simply kill whoever he wishes whenever he wishes? No Endurance checks just point his finger and it's dead. I'd be pissed if my GM did that to me or if he let another player have a Deus Ex type power that made all the rest of the team obsolete.
It might not even be a question of cane he, it might be more along the lines of if he can should I let him? DG X( Marvel > DC
Oh, it'd certainly be an Endurance feat to resist. In fact, that'd be the ONLY way to resist it, and TI and possibly Body Resistance.
I don't think the Event Horizon expands at the speed of light -- in fact, if I'm remembering my Astronomy lessons correctly, after spreading out to a certain distance, it dissipates, and the Black Hole goes "poof" (which is a good thing, else the entire universe would be sucked away very quickly). --------------------- Be Ex/20 to one another!
AFAIK, the event horizon of a black hole is constant after formation.
Whats more, a sufficiently small, or primordial, black hole wouldn't even suck up a single person, let alone the solar system. Of course, thats because said micro-black hole is smaller than an electron. . . Lastly, Graviton has no line of sight limit. He levitated most of Earth's heroes helplessly from half a planet away.
(1) What exactly is the event horizon? Can you avoid being sucked into the black hole if you can orbit the event horizon at the speed of light?
(2) Binary's powers are based on the physics of a white hole (I seem to recall the OHOTMU describing a white hole as an aperture where all of the energies drawn into a black hole are emitted back into the Universe). What can you tell me about white holes? Are they only theoretical phenomena? (3) What about wormholes? Are they only theoretical phenomena? Bear with me as I'm an armchair enthusiast and not a physicist: 1.) It is basically a spherical surface that marks the point at which the escape velocity of the black hole equals the velocity of light. Outside the horizon the escape velocity is less than light, so although it may still be a significant portion of light speed you can still get away if you're fast enough. 2.) It is believed that they are only theoretical. They are just as mathematically sound as a black hole but you depict them mathematically by reversing the flow of time which is of course impossible. The only chance that one might happen is if one of Hawking's theories came to pass: a Big Crunch (as opposed to a Big Bang) would basically run time backwards. This is not only something that humans will probably never see, but it so radically messes up our world we have no idea what we would actually experience if it happened anyway. So, they are "most probably" nonexistent. 3.)Wormholes are basically an electrically charged, rotating black hole that is connected to a corresponding white hole. That makes them even less likely than simple ol' white holes. Supposedly, people have "proven" that the math exists to describe a situation where this connection not only exists but that you can enter the black hole, not collapse into a singularity, and pop out the white hole. This could move you not only insane distances in impossibly short periods of time, but could also move you through time or even to a different universe. You can see why sci-fi people jumped all over this! Unfortunately, they are probably just mathematically viable fiction. Black holes that form from collapsing matter do not form wormholes, and these are the only kinds of black holes we have ever found. If a wormhole did exist, it is in very precise balance to have any kind of stability. If you entered it you would most probably "break" it. Lastly, all radiation that pours into a black hole gets blueshifted. That means that all the energy is being turned into gamma and X-rays. This would laugh at the shielding we have, or plan to have, on any space vehicle. [snip] Does he mean the range of a black hole's gravitational field is constantly expanding? That seems odd--and counterintuitive. [/snip] They are mucho odd! Inside the hole, the aspects of radial distance and time actually switch characteristics. Distance from the center has an ever decreasing value to a singularity that is unaffected by any attempts at "movement". Trying to run away from the center actually sounds exactly like saying "I'm running away from Monday." Counterintuitive exactly. [snip] I don't think the Event Horizon expands at the speed of light -- in fact, if I'm remembering my Astronomy lessons correctly, after spreading out to a certain distance, it dissipates, and the Black Hole goes "poof" (which is a good thing, else the entire universe would be sucked away very quickly). [/snip] Yes and no, as far as I know. It does expand at the speed of light but it doesn't expand ad infinitum and it may or may not dissipate. Hawking proposed what is basically a vacuum fluctuation theory that shows that some radiation does in fact escape the black hole. It is really heady stuff that I'm not that confident about, but I know that it involves working with physics in curved space-time and the uncertainty principal of quantum mechanics that allows for the violation of the first law of thermodynamics. I do know that it is impossible to actually test the scenario, and most scientists are not willing to call anything dealing with the subject anything more than a theory. At any rate, I don't understand the math required for curved space-time (yet :hot-hot-hot: ) so I can't really say. Also, some scientists do think the universe will end as one big black hole. Some don't. Whadda' want from a bunch of shaved apes? :) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Build a man a fire and he will be warm for a night. Set a man on fire, and he will be warm the rest of his life
Um, MetaP, what the heck are you smoking? The center's of ALL Black Hole's are incredibly tiny -- they're called Singularities, where matter is crushed to infinite density, the pull of gravity is infinitely strong, and spacetime has infinite curvature. It's no longer meaningful to speak of space and time when near a Singularity, much less spacetime. Jumbled up at the singularity, space and time (as we know them) cease to exist. In the center of a black hole, matter collapses into infinitie density -- how can that not affect someone standing right next to it?
By the by, "Black Hole" is something of a misnomer -- a more technically correct term would be "Black Sphere," since space is 3-dimensional (and so's the sutff inside it, even 'Black Holes') --------------------- Be Ex/20 to one another!
[snip] AFAIK, the event horizon of a black hole is constant after formation. [/snip]
I believe that from an observer's point of view who is sufficiently distant from the black hole, a body crossing the event horizon would appear to take an infinitely long time to cross. That would make it seem static. This is an optical illusion. Most of the peculiarities people associate with black holes comes from our knee-jerk reflex to think of them like we think of everyday objects. Since light cannot escape a black hole, any description of what we would "see" happening is skewed since we need the light to see. Cool trivia: Black holes were originally called "frozen stars" because time appears to slow to an infinitely slow pace near the event horizon, thus when a star is in the process of collapsing it will, at some point, emit light that "hangs" right in front of the horizon. Since no light escapes after this, and the light stays "one step ahead" of the horizon, the star appears to be frozen. Actually, you wouldn't be wrong if you said that time really does slow infinitely as you approach the horizon. If you managed to hover just near the horizon for awhile and then returned from whence you came, all the people you left behind would have aged considerably more than you. All in all, speculation takes the place of experimentation in most of these explanations. I don't think we will live to see hands-on black hole experiments. This will keep us from knowing what is going on with certainty. Science without experimentation is only half-science. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Build a man a fire and he will be warm for a night. Set a man on fire, and he will be warm the rest of his life
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I wouldn't let Graviton's powers be enough to let him create a black hole. In nature, this requires the gravity of a few solar masses, and that's hardly Shift-Y gravity control.
It's theoretically possible to create a lighter black hole than that, I guess, but you would still need to give the matter involved some incentive to compress enough to form a singularity. I wouldn't even let Shift-Y be enough to create the kind of collapsed matter that makes up neutron stars. This, however, does not mean that he can't make people implode. I've never read a comic with Gravitron, but IF he can create a Shift-Y gravity center anywhere, and IF he's not limited to line of sight, I see no reason why he couldn't inflict Shift-Y damage on anyone, regardless of Body Armor, but still limited by True Invulnerability and Body Resistance. I don't get the reasoning behind a Endurance test though. I don't see what that's emulating, and a saving throw sounds a bit D&D:ish to me. Either he has the physical power needed, or he doesn't. If the victim gets an Endurance resistance roll for this, I don't see why you shouldn't get it when you're hit by a fire bolt from the Torch. I'd sooner force Gravitron to make a Agility roll to pinpoint his victim.
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