Death and Taxes

are the only two things you can be sure of, IRL, but in a super hero game they are two things you can be fairly sure you'll only see when the GJ hasn't gotten laid for a month and is really feeling nasty.

This said, why?

I've seen the thoughts of Mssrs Warlock and SDI in the Wolverine post, and for the main part I agree with them, but...

The super villians of many game worlds, and often enough of Marvel comics itself, are a nihilistic bunch, or outright psychopaths, with this becoming more and more prevalent in the recent years, especially in the comics. To be honest, I don't see this as a bad thing, but it leads to the question: Why should my hero be penalized for killing Sabretooth when he guts people on a regular basis?

The theory there being that the man who rids the world of a Sabretooth type is doing the world a favor, saving lives with that action. The problem is, there is much to be said for that view point.

There are people that will hold that unless you kill them; they WILL come back and kill others again, and that YOU then are responsible for those all too predictable actions. The Punisher is a good example of the truism that an enemy is only safe when he's dead.

But back to the main point; for as I said, I agree with Warlock and SDI, why is it that the death of opponents or innocents is so heavily penalized when it often leads to less deaths in the over all?

The answer is ethics. Man is not a moral or ethical creature in his own right. As a species we're violent and prone to violence; and once the line is crossed, even once, into killing, human life losses alot of it's value to the perpetrator, whether he had the best of intentions, whther it was his job, or not.

I've taken enough Criminal Psych courses to have found out something that you hear from time to time in the papers, but that no one wants to think about: Once a Police Officer has taken a life, in the line of duty, he is more than twentyfive times more likely to do so again than one who has not.

The preponderance of deadly force situations for metropolitan police officers throws into bold relief why it can not be tollerated in a game based on Super Heroics. Once you start down the primrose path, it is almost impossible to go back.

Most police officers who have taken lives are absolutely devastated by the event, whether it was in self defense, defense of an innocent, within the strict guidleines for justifiable homicide; or not. Those that aren't are very often seperated out from street level jobs if the department involved can manage it, because those are the ones who will, VERY often be involved in those situations again and again and again. Irregardless of what you see in the movies, guys like Riggs and Murtaugh, and some do exist in almost every major metro PD (albiet not to the movie's overblown degree) are universally shunned and abhored in the departments they serve in.

A Police Sniper, and again, irregardless of the movies portrayal of this, are the generally loneliest guys in service. They are doing a job, a neccesary job in many cases, but they are viewed with trepidation even by their friends. These good men are almost always the ones to take early retirement when offered, when they manage to klast that long and almost always then move FAR away from the area they worked in when they retire; hoping for a fresh start. Thankfully, there are never many of these guys in any country at time.

That is why I have always felt utterly justified in stripping a player who kills in cold blood of all of his karma, and penalizing them severly if by an obvious inaction, they cause the "accidental" death of another person. It is utterly against the ethic of the Super Hero. It taints and damages the person from then on.

By the popular demand of the players, I had a game where we did allow it, and while they got no karma for killing, and still lost karma ignoring the possible plight of innocents, I did not strip their karma if they killed a foe. The game devolved rather quickly, lasted only four sessions (about two weeks) and is the one itterations of the New Hope Campaign that was officially deleted from the histories of the group. No character involved in it is either played or mentioned any further by any of us. As a whole, from talking about it later, we felt a bit soiled by it. I imagine this is because we were, for the most part, a bunch of former soldiers and cops to begin with. The thing that is the most shameful for me is that we played it at all.

That though is part of RP too: taking those dark things out of the psyche and examining them. But, it is not Heroic in any manner.

In other games we've played we've handled that (the killer aspect) of the personality, but without reservation, I can say that I can see no use whatever for it in a game based on Heroism and high ideals.

What have all of you experienced in this?

Gerrod



If electricity comes from electrons; does that mean that morality comes from morons? G. Carlin

I have never and will never allow the intentional killing of chracters evil or otherwise. If a player wants to do it I don't take the dice from him I just slam him into the earth with real life penalties like jail, other vigilantes looking to do them in and almost total seperation from the rest of the game world. Would you keep hanging out with someone who was going around killing people? Especially if they are wanted criminals. I understand that some may want to play this way, and to each their own, but I hope they understand that they are straying far from the path that the comics (and society itself) has taken.

P.S. Gerrod I was a little surprised to see you defending the kill'em all attitude, but as I read was releaved to see that you were just stating the other side of the arguement. And in a cerebral, pure logic sort of way that makes sense, but when you inject the smallest amount of humanity into the equation it becomes a no brainer IMHO. I imagine you see where I stand on the Death Penalty.

To whom it may concern: I am not trying to start a debate on the issue of Capitol Punsihment, as I believe those issues should be left to other phorums. Although far be it for me to tell others what they can and cannot discuss. I think that covers my a$$ so thank you and good day. :mdr!:



DG X(

Marvel > DC

I have to say that I would agree with the above posts.

I will add however that if a Hero is defending themself or an innocent. And their life depends on them either killing or be killed. I Will penalise them but not by loosing all their Karma.

The way I see it with the characters in my campaigns they would have to be in dire straights for this too happen.

I always emphasize the point at the start of the game that this is not AD&d. They soon get the point. In any event. As stated by others they are HEROS... and HEROS don't kill either unless there is ABSOLUTELY NOW OTHER WAY.



Fangs
>>| |-- ::!o --||<<
"Yes it the Game has bugs"
"I like mine squished"
"Bon Appetite!"

Hi Fangs,

It's just a persomal thing with me perhaps, but, with referrence to the stats given in the thread that started this post, I do strip their karma for any act that "directly" causes the death of another. Siting the example of the Police Sniper... often if they don't take the shot, an innocent WILL die, but they still suffer from it.

You see, it isn't a matter of penalizing the player, but of representing what it does to the character. I also, routinely, put the characters in life or death situations, but the players don't see that either as me going after them... and to date, I've had just one complaint in more than sixteen years of this.

Most players, at least those we've included in our campaigns, know how to seperate what happens to their characters from what happens to them, and don't take it personally when they loose karma.

As a for instance: I had a player in the grand campaign I ran in the early nineties who had a long standing feud/bad blood/hate-hate relationship with our worlds version of the Joker. The npc GrimJack was a complete psychopath who was, at the time when WhiteShadow (the PC) caused his death, was holding the decapitated head of one of the more beloved minor npc's in the campaign, Hendricks, who was basicly the groups Alfred; he had his finger hovering over a button that would have blown up a bus full of nuns, and was taunting Steve's character all the while. No need to say that he had sufficient reason to ace the guy, and while it was possible to take him down without killing him, it would have put that bus full of nuns at far greater risk. WhiteShadow did not hesitate, he took a -3CS for a head shot with his Laser projector, rolled a 98 and smiled happily as he got 1345 karma (alot to have in the bank in that campaign)sucked out for a kill.

The player was happy about it, and none of us blamed him, especially me, but the character, who had never killed before, suffered for it, and the player played that angle up in later sessions.

Thta is one of the things that RPing supers is all about. Being a super doesn't mean that you'll always win, or that the powers make your life easier... it actually makes life more complicated as "with great power comes great responsibility".

Gerrod



If electricity comes from electrons; does that mean that morality comes from morons? G. Carlin

Hmm,
That would mean that the punisher is skating thin ice (karma wise) he would also be wanted by the police as well.

Would you send your PC's in an official capacity to bring the punisher in ???



Fangs
>>| |-- ::!o --||<<
"Yes it the Game has bugs"
"I like mine squished"
"Bon Appetite!"

My question is would the rest of the group lose Karma as well? To date nobody in my campaigns have killed anyone in any but a mysterious death capacity. And in that case I figured that only the one responsible for not being able to hang on to the baddie, hanging over the cliff, should suffer the penalty (the body was never found of course). I don't recall wether or not the books address this issue.



DG X(

Marvel > DC

Warlock,

I quote Father Grubb: "If a Hero who is a member of a Karma Pool kills another character, or allows through his actions the death of another, both his PERSONAL KARMA & THE KARMA OF THE POOL ARE REDUCED TO ZERO ",
"This is probably why Punisher will never be an Avenger, and why the rest of the X-Men have always kept an eye on Wolverine. Noble and mysterious deaths, as well as self-destruction, is handled as for individual characters",

----So if you play Grubb's way then a Karma Pool is obliterated whenever one of it's members kills but the individual teammates do not lose personal Karma.

Secret Defender Incorporated

Thanx, the personal Karma was what I was unsure about.



DG X(

Marvel > DC

Yesterday I went to my friendly neighborhood comic shop and raided the .50 cent boxes and found the reprint of Uncanny X-Men #164. The reprint is in Classic X-Men #68.

After I read it I thought of our topic that Gerrod got rolling.

THE CHARACTERS AND THE SET-UP...Cyclops, Storm, Colossus, Wolverine ,Carol Danvers, Kitty P., Nightcrawler, and Lilandra

They are aboard a starliner they hijacked from the Brood Throneworld and attempting to escape Brood space. Carol Danvers arms the "fire and forget" computer guided missiles to shoot at the persuing Brood hunterships.

Colossus; Is there no other way, Wolverine? Must we...kill?

Wolverine: It's us or them Petey. An' if ever a race deserved their fate...the Brood's it.

Carol Danvers: Sights locked...GOT HIM! ( one of the Brood vessels is completely destroyed, all aboard killed).

(BETWEEN THEM WOLVERINE AND CAROL BEGIN TO TAKE A DEADLY TOLL. COLOSSUS THINKS TO HIMSELF..."I know that the Brood are evil, yet I keep wishing there were some other way",.)

MEANWHILE... Cyclops and Storm have found a way to use their respective Eyebeams and Lightning. Both agree to only disable the enemy ships, carefully placing their shots. Cyclops succeeds, however Storm does not (She called for a BUllseye but rolled Red anyway) and her good intentions result in the unintended destruction that destroys all life aboard the ship that she targeted.

Ororo drops to her knees sobbing realizing what has happened. Scott communicates to her via comlink asking her if she is o.k.

Storm: I...cannot (continue). My powers no longer yield to my will. If I use them, I will kill. And that I cannot do--for you, for...Kitty, for anyone.

LATER... After a warp jump takes them safely out of Brood space, Wolverine challenges Cyclops' leadership prior to the X-Men stealing the starliner from the Brood Throneworld...

Wolverine: Why didn't you help me nail their queen when we had the chance, Cyke?! That would have done some real damage--possibly crippled their entire race!

Cyclops: I told you, Wolverine: X-Men don't kill.

Wolverine: (SNIKT) Wanna bet?...(retracts claws) Sorry. I...didn't mean to do that. I guess all that's happened has driven me kinka buggy.


O.K. GAME JUDGES...

If you were running this issue as if it were a scenario and your players were doing exactly what is written above how do you judge Karma Loss? The players did set up a Karma Pool prior to the adventure that still has 200 points in
it.

Secret Defender Incorporated

Wolverine and Ms. Danvers lose all personal Karma and the entire Karma pool is wiped clean. Maybe that's why Storm didn't have the karma to just disable and not destroy. Maybe a little karma for those that tried to stop the others or refused to join in. That's a big maybe mind you, it would have to be more than a halfhearted "no please stop...*yawn*". Oh yeah Storm would lose all personal Karma as well. Like they say "nobody said being a hero is easy". Although if the player roleplayed Storm's grief well their would be a RP bonus in it at the end of the adventure. I don't give out roleplaying bonuses until the end, unlike karma for beating baddies, disabling the bomb, etc.



DG X(

Marvel > DC

Hey I like the Karma pool being wiped out due to Wolvie and Carol having initiative and killing several Brood hunters! Good show, Mr. Warlock!

I agree that for roleplaying the player running Storm deserves an "endgame" reward. I also think that if the player running Cyke matter-of-factly told Wolverine that "X-Men don't kill.", (notice there is no exclamation point) then it would demonstrate that the player was running Cyclops as a confident leader.

What about Colossus? Is him being remorseful yet in the same room enought to save his Karma?


Secret Defender Incorporated.

Hi guys,

I agree with Warlock's answer in it's entirety. As for Collosus, like the man said, "life isn't always fair". He also looses whaever karma was in the pool. No exceptions. But if the player protrayed it well enough, there would be an RP bonus at end game.

BTW: There would be for Wolverine's player to in the above example, and maybe danver's player as well, if they protrayed the Marvel characters that close to the way they are written. One thing has nothing to do with the other.

Gerrod



If electricity comes from electrons; does that mean that morality comes from morons? G. Carlin

i hate to be the voice of dissent, because i for one am not interested in hack-and-slash kill 'em all type games. but hear me out, and keep an open mind.

i think the majority of people, particularly those who wear spandex get-ups and fight supervillains, are generally opposed to killing the bad guys to achieve their goals. most of those people, were they to accidentally murder someone, would indeed feel remorse and should lose Karma.

in certain circumstances, usually dictated by the story line and RP interaction, these same law-abiding, good-hearted people are just as capable of killing someone as Sabretooth if pressed. note that the following examples are not pretty, but **could** happen. for instance, were a superheroine raped while her powers didn't work for some reason, and she lashed out in retaliation once her powers returned and killed her rapist. if a hero were to kill a pedophile who had taken advantage of their child, it would seem perfectly realistic to do so becasue of their rage.

the point of this is that, regardless of it being right or wrong, we (Americans, anyhow) live in a society where it is acceptable to kill those considered irredeemable--we have a death penalty which gives us the backhanded message to not kill by killing murderers. still, it is this paradox that makes it feasible that ANYONE, no matter how opposed to murder, is capable of murder.

another factor that i think plays into this is the characters in-character world view. soldiers and spies (two common hero occupations--think Black Widow and Cable) would have no qualms about killing to achieve their goals, for example. these people may have had issues with it in the past, but it makes sense that they'd treat offing the baddies as the cost of doing business. these people may be considered questionable, or anti-heroes, but their moral world view sees their actions as a necessary evil, part fo their job, or even as a way to stop MORE deaths. does it make them right? heck, i dunno, and i'm glad those decisions aren't mine to make. but i won't judge them or penalize a player doing so realistically by stripping them of Karma.

a great amount of intense RP can be done by mixing those with differing world views--those people highly against murder despite justification chiding an unapologetic spy/ex-assassin character who kills Sabretooth would make for interesting RP, as would a newbie hero who accidentally killed a villain being consoled by a lifetime military man.

my point is this: if it would make sense within the character's internal psychology that he could justify murder, and those circumstances are met, i wouldn't be quick to penalize the player. if it goes agaisnt their grain, then it's important to strip their Karma.

thanks for reading.

sean...

SaintObvious,

I see Karma as a tool to make sure that characters stay within the bounds of the parameters of either the existing Marvel or original character that they are portraying.

I see the slippery slope of eradicating Natasha Romanov's or Frank Castle's Karma if they are simply doing what they are either trained to do or makes them "who" they are.

As the Game Judge you must set the standard for your Universe. If the Player(s) cannot accept your decisions about when they lose all Karma and when they do not then my advise is to encourage them to play characters who think more along the lines of Cap or Spidey.

Speaking of which, I do not think that Black Widow has killed while serving as an Avenger, but obviously Cap must have killed a Nazi or two during WWII...or am I incorrect with one or both of those suppositions?

Secret Defender Incorporated.

Well I think the point to remember is Karma isn't a reward in and of itself as far as the game is concerned. It is there to represent the addage "good things happen to good people". You do good things and live a good life and then when you need it, falling off the building and only having one chance to save youself from hitting the sidewalk, life helps you out and you just happen to fall close enough to the flagpole to latch on with one hand (having enough Karma to make sure you get that Red Feat). You go around killing people and low and behold you hit the one spot on the pole with bird crap on it and your hand slips (no Karma because you just aced a guy yesterday and you roll a 01). How many movies/tv shows/comics have you seen where the good guy and the bad guy fall off the cliff but only the good guy finds that strong branch to cling to while the baddie grabs a branch and it breaks? I think this is what Karma represents and is the main way it should be judged.

Remember it's called "Karma" for a reason. Wolverine may not see any problem with killing but the Marvel Universe sees it differently.

As for Colosuss I wouldn't give a bonus or penalty (other than not being able to call on the group's empty Karma pool). He didn't do much of anything to warrant either IMO. He refused to help but didn't really do much to stop it either.



DG X(

Marvel > DC

Hi all,

I tell you what: there is, for the reasons stated in the original post to this thread, no good reason for a double standard.

Hey, I will NOT restrict my players from protraying their characters as they deem fit, BUT, the karma guidelines that I've layed out here are done that way for a reason.

I believe that someone already quoted and probably re-quoted Jeff grubb on this, but it bears repeating (or re-repeating) that this IS the reason guys like Nomad, the Punisher, Widow, Wolverine and others never seem to have much karma/"luck".

Nor should they. There "freedom" is the advantage that they have, just as tons of karma is the advantage that Cyclops usually has.

I have all kinds of characters running in my game. They know the way things are done and why. To this point in basicly twenty years of GJing this game, I've had one complaint to date.

Gerrod



If electricity comes from electrons; does that mean that morality comes from morons? G. Carlin

Yes. I come down on the side of lose all Karma whether it is Captain America who kills or the Punisher.

As far as the Colossus question posted previously I would not penalize him of any personal Karma. What he gave to the pool would be gone, of course.

IMO he followed Wolverine's "they deserve their fate" statement even though in his own heart he felt badly that the Brood had to be killed. He had been to THroneworld and saw how evil the Brood are.

And in this issue only Wolverine knows that everyone else on board the starliner has a Brood egg growing inside them. Each egg destined to become a Queen!

Wolverine's healing factor treated it like an invading virus and treated it as such (gotta love that Healing Factor!).

Secret Defender

I think that my players may be afraid of killing more for the popularity loss than the karma loss. Usually for them building up karma stores is fairly easy but once they are accused of murder they know from experience that it will be a while to regain their lost pop.
One such character was convicted of murder. He was framed in a bar fight gone wrong. Needless to say after the trial and the negative press and a few run-ins with the police after his escape from prison have caused him to go into negative popularity. He eagerly awaits one or two pop points in reward as he slowly crawls up to 0 popularity. Now when I have an NPC ask my group of heros to do away with someone he responds quickly, "No way! I'm not killing anyone." Unfortunately the negative pop. affects the whole and foils their efforts to become a government sanctioned super-hero team.
I think that if one of my players ever did kill the penalty paid would actually add to the role playing experience and as such fully penalizing players for their murders is a good thing in my opinion.


Vul-kar

I agree that the biggest penalties should be roleplaying ones. They can get Karma and Popularity back, but getting your wife or family to look at you the same would be alot harder. That said not many players like to dive this deep into their chracters. Not many I have seen anyways.

Family? What about them? Did they get kidnapped again?



DG X(

Marvel > DC