Question regarding reasonable power limitations

Posted by Nightmask 
This forum is currently read only. You can not log in or make any changes. This is a temporary situation.
Question regarding reasonable power limitations
March 16, 2008 06:06PM
avatar
Based on a few conversations I had with someone that ended up going around and around in circles I'm just curious how many think a write-up just has to have every limitation written down or it doesn't exist? For example someone's character in a game has Body Transformation-Self and the player says 'I want to turn into True Adamantium' because the player knows it exists even though the character hasn't any reason to have any clue the stuff exists (say a random mutant just learning his powers after they activate).

Now the power doesn't explicitly state that the character have some means of at least knowing it exists if not some encounter with it to know how to turn into it yet isn't that simply letting player knowledge become character knowledge and violating the rules and causality? I've seen something similar with some of the older character posts in Your Favorites where assumptions were made based on players' knowledge instead of what was reasonable for the characters to know.

When does it stretch into failure to separate Player/Character knowledge or Rules-Lawyering when the assumption is 'if it isn't written it doesn't exist?'. That's hardly the only power that leaves out every detail for space-saving purposes or because the limitations are assumed to be obvious.

"A shared universe, like any fictional construct, hinges on suspension of disbelief. When continuity is tossed away, it tatters the construct. Undermines it."

-- Peter David

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Nightmask Character Sheet

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Paragon Character Sheet

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Complete list of my characters various forum URLs, over 30 to enjoy!

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Godiva Character Sheet

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Seraphim Character Sheet

[www.furaffinity.net] Art by Marvel Comic's artist Rusty Haller!

[www.furaffinity.net] Artist/writer/Creator of The Extinctioners Independent super-hero comic!

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Sappho Character Sheet

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Cornucopia Character Sheet

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Nightmares of Futures Past Ongoing Story

[www.classicmarvel.com] - There is no such thing as too powerful Forum Thread
Re: Question regarding reasonable power limitations
March 16, 2008 10:40PM
Well, I guess if the character has Body Transformation-Self at CL1000 and has encountered True Adamantium, he/ she could turn into it... if it's at Unearthly, then I suppose they could become Secondary Adamamtium.
Otherwise... no.
Re: Question regarding reasonable power limitations
March 16, 2008 10:43PM
avatar
Almost ALL Character’s are written listing out their “Strengths”..... Because this list is WAY shorter than their list of weakness......

Only under certain circumstances are limitations listed... And that’s to illustrate a Character concept or behavior......

Notice the Supreme “Entity” Characters...

“Infinite Omnipotence” is their Power at a certain Rank for FEAT rolls.... Thus, the list of Limitations is shorter than the list of Strengths.

For a Supreme “Entity” Character the Stat page is Short and Brief, and their FASERIP is not even relevant... And with Health and Karma over 1000 Points, they can simply ‘Buy’ an UN:100 Ranked Power Stunt ‘On the Spot’ or ‘Off the Hip’



For your specific question I’d ask:

“What’s the Power Rank of the Character’s Self-Body Transformation”

Player: It’s UN:100..... (or EX:20 or IN:40 or It works off the Reason or Psyche or ‘Whatever’)

Judge: So you can transform into a Metallic substance up to UN:100 Material Strength.

Player: NO..... I can transform into any molecular structure I desire.... I can turn into Adamantium at will.

Judge: You can transform into Adamantium, Sure no problem........ Unearthly [UN:100] Adamantium.

Player: NO..... I can transform into CL:1000 Adamantium.....

Judge: Does your Character have 1 item, or skill, or power of Cl:1000 at his disposal, right now??

Player: Ummmm... No..... (And a buncha other crap to justify his Cl:1000 ‘whatever’)

Judge: Does the Character have at least 900 Karma Points, to add to his UN:100 FEAT roll?

Player: Ummmm... No..... (And a buncha other crap to justify his Cl:1000 ‘whatever’)

Judge: Does the Character have a ‘Talent’ in Metallurgical Science or Wizardry or Education??

Player: Ummmm... No..... (And a buncha other crap to justify his Cl:1000 ‘whatever’)

Judge: Your Character can transform into a Metal substance ‘LIKE’ Adamantium up to UN:100.

Player: NO..... I can transform into CL:1000 Adamantium.....

Judge: House Rule; number ‘Whatever’.... Everyone’s shix is capped at UN:100...

Player: That house rule SUX....

Judge: Fine, house rule lifted.... Next Round, Magneto comes into the Game....



www.TankerAce.com | www.Arcain.com | www.Viper99.com
Re: Question regarding reasonable power limitations
March 16, 2008 11:00PM
avatar
(:!D Next round Magneto!!! Hysterical.

The Last Duskblade
Q-Class Forever!!!
Re: Question regarding reasonable power limitations
March 16, 2008 11:16PM
avatar
That ends up being the problem really, behaving as if the PC has no limitations at all because the power doesn't specificially list those limitations because they're so obvious. The actual disagreement/argument I'd had was over Molecular Conversion but it applies with Body Transformation and Molecular Creation and other powers like that. 'The power says you can make/be anything it doesn't say you have to know what you want to make/be to become it' then pointing to the helpful suggestion about keeping a crib sheet of materials the character would know as meaning anything the player thought of was okay.

Unfortunately the notation under Alchemy that he has to learn every element or compound he wants to produce was mistakenly used to justify that no one else using the base power would have to do the same. Of course sometimes a limitation might be explicitly stated under a particular character and was quite necessary for him since he was new to his powers and hadn't developed them as far as the average PC is considered to have done.

It's the logical failure that one can't do something or act without knowledge about something to base it on. While the power might let you create or become any element or compound it doesn't carry a database to be able to know everything that exists you have to have something to explain it. Can't make Wakandan Vibranium or Uru metal if you have no clue that it even exists or haven't found some lying around.

I don't have problems with a character making any of that or with transformation powers becoming it but they do need to at least have more justification than 'my player knows it exists' to make it happen. Besides players aren't supposed to be using their knowledge in game like that anyway.

"A shared universe, like any fictional construct, hinges on suspension of disbelief. When continuity is tossed away, it tatters the construct. Undermines it."

-- Peter David

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Nightmask Character Sheet

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Paragon Character Sheet

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Complete list of my characters various forum URLs, over 30 to enjoy!

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Godiva Character Sheet

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Seraphim Character Sheet

[www.furaffinity.net] Art by Marvel Comic's artist Rusty Haller!

[www.furaffinity.net] Artist/writer/Creator of The Extinctioners Independent super-hero comic!

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Sappho Character Sheet

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Cornucopia Character Sheet

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Nightmares of Futures Past Ongoing Story

[www.classicmarvel.com] - There is no such thing as too powerful Forum Thread
Re: Question regarding reasonable power limitations
March 17, 2008 12:03AM
avatar
Agreed. I'm a believer in using the Judge of a game to decide what constitutes common sense in these situations. If you happen to be the Judge in your house (as most of us are) then you can generate any character you wish within the interpretation you adhere to. When I got into The Rook's campaign I knew that he and I (like any two people) were bound to see the game slightly different. So I when I built my character I made sure I asked him detailed question about what the inherent limitations of a power would be in his game. That is the only way, because the rule books do not really give you a hard fast rule for these things. One thing that I think we should all require of our Players and ourselves is a detailed explanation of the character and his powers. The more detail the better as there is nothing I hate more than a character who is nothing more than a list of rank names and numbers.

The Last Duskblade
Q-Class Forever!!!
Re: Question regarding reasonable power limitations
March 17, 2008 12:56AM
avatar
Common sense rarely is as common as it should be and there are certain things that are required as a basis without which there is no sense. Something in a reality with gravity falls when dropped in a gravity well, if it doesn't without some justification then you've just got nonsense and without adhering to basic rules no one can agree enough to have anything work.

'It's a comic book setting so anything goes' isn't justification, even comics have to have some boundaries or rules or they have no meaning because you get tired of 'just because' as an excuse for why something works or doesn't work. That's one reason why people have had problems with the Hulk of late with his power escalation or how Superman Pre-Crisis was more like Omniman able to do anything no matter how rediculous. DC had to reboot continuity in part to depower him enough to provide boundaries and challenges to make him worth connecting with.

Even in a fantasy game a wizard doesn't conjure up a rat or demon without knowing what one is even if just in the basics. No matter how loosly you look at things and consider magic could fill in for it can't fill in for everything including giving you knowledge of something you don't know about otherwise your character's omniscient in which case he probably loses playability when he knows anything and everything. It's even a stretch in a game where for some reason a GM treats player knowledge as character knowledge because the player certainly wouldn't know how to make Adamantium or a pocket calculator for that matter.

Imposing some common sense and realizing what limits exist that went unwritten is a necessary thing for the players and GM otherwise things devolve into confusion or some serious twinking if 'it isn't written down so it doesn't exist' is actually considered part of the game.

"A shared universe, like any fictional construct, hinges on suspension of disbelief. When continuity is tossed away, it tatters the construct. Undermines it."

-- Peter David

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Nightmask Character Sheet

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Paragon Character Sheet

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Complete list of my characters various forum URLs, over 30 to enjoy!

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Godiva Character Sheet

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Seraphim Character Sheet

[www.furaffinity.net] Art by Marvel Comic's artist Rusty Haller!

[www.furaffinity.net] Artist/writer/Creator of The Extinctioners Independent super-hero comic!

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Sappho Character Sheet

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Cornucopia Character Sheet

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Nightmares of Futures Past Ongoing Story

[www.classicmarvel.com] - There is no such thing as too powerful Forum Thread
Re: Question regarding reasonable power limitations
March 17, 2008 10:20PM
avatar
The ambiguity of many of these powers is simply overwhelming......


When it comes to really versatile Powers, like Body Transformation my Gaming Table actually made a “Shape Shifting Grid”....... I don’t have it with me anymore.... But I remember some of it.....



During Character Creation say you Roll “Shape Shifting” OR “Body Transformation” as a power... Both are considered the same at this point..... Changeling and all the other “names” are covered too.

The Initial “Rank” of the Shape Shifting Power is equal to your Karma..... So if you have about 50 Karma it’s AM:50 Shape Shifting....

The minimum Rank for such a Power is GD:10...... (RIP at Straight PR:04..... Karma = 12)

With AM:50 Shape Shifting or Body Transformation you can only harness 5 of the categories listed below.... And you Roll Dice to discover which 5 you mastered.....

We also had different % Rates for each category... That way the categories sort of meshed together and channeled the Character into a certain type of Shape Shifter....

With 100 Initial Karma Points you could possibility master all 10 categories of Transformation at UN:100 Rank.... Because you’d get 10 rolls to master the 10 categories...... And if you had 120 or 150 Initial Karma Points your chances are even better for mastering all 10 Categories....... (Just Drop the Zero)

If you rolled 2, 3, 4, and so on up to 10 rolls in the same Category, you got that 1 Category with extra stuff.... Basically, Power Stunts.... Theoretically, you could get 1 Category with 9 Total Power Stunts... These should be listed in the stats because all the other weird stuff you can not do.... You’ve almost fully mastered one of the Categories.

Finally, Evolution or ‘Growth’ of the Power was more difficult than most other Powers... My Table normally uses 1000 Karma to make an addition based off a current Power you have..... So you spend 1000 Karma to up-shift a single FASERIP or Power by 10 points... If it’s even possible for your Character......

But really versatile Powers such as Shape Shifting or Body Transformation or Matter / Energy manipulation required (10,000 Karma X your Rank) to evolve to the next Rank Level......

Permanently mastering a “Power Stunt” within your Category required 1000 KP.

Mastering a different Category required 5000 KP X your Rank.

Basically you needed 1 to 10 Million Karma to reach CL:1000 Shape Shifting or Body Transformation...



Categories:

Liquids | Solids | Gaseous | Spectral | Energy | Form | Mass | Size | Creature | Item

Liquids: You could transform from Human Form to a Liquid Form.... There are a lot of other properties involved that I don’t want get into right now.... But you could only turn into guided Water and back into a Human... that was all.... Or simply be a guy made of manipulated water, or oil, or blood, or tar.... or just some strange gel like liquid stuff..... Any function beyond this was a ‘Power Stunt’....... Sand-Man falls into this category, even though he is sand.

Solid: This did not change your ‘Shape’ or ‘Form’ but Composition... Your Flesh may become Metal, Ice, Glass, Diamond, pretty much any Solid material up to your Power Rank in Durability and Strength...... You’re still Human Form though.... FASE Ranks could increase quite a bit......

Gaseous: Similar to Liquids, but you can become as thin as Air. Levitation is included as a Power Stunt.... Flight and Wind manipulation had to be learned..... Vampires tend to learn this one easily, and many other powers are simulated through it.... Such as inducing Cold, Levitating in solid form, or taking attacks without getting injured....... Stuff goes straight through you.

Spectral: You’re basically a Ghost who can manifest into a Physical Human Form... Some power stunts were already included with one such as inducing emotional ‘Terror’ or ‘Euphoria’ as a Psyche Attack. Moving though solid objects is also a ‘given’ Power Stunt... Psychic Possession was a difficult Power Stunt...

Energy: You’re Ice-Man or Human Touch or Electric Buzz without range attacks or simulated flight... Normally, power stunts for this category are easy to master.... And you get AZZ loads of basic utility “spells” as well.... Other power stunts came by default too, but this still needs support from the other categories.

Form: This ONLY allows you change from one Human form to Another Human Form.. Mystique is a good example of this one.... While your shape shifting is limited to ‘Human’ forms only, you pretty much could master all the power stunts easily.

Mass: This allows the Shape Shifter to add or subtract mass to his body... He can become Heavy or Light... And to a limited degree change his size..... But not way out of Human ‘normal’...... Like 3 Feet tall to 7 Feet tall....

Size: Sort of Similar to Mass, but you can only use the mass you currently have.... This allowed the shape shifter to also form very crude objects and items as well as shrink and elongate.... Basically this is Reed Richards.

Creature: This allowed you to take on the form of other Creatures such as Animals.... This power really needs support from the other Categories to be ‘Fully’ mastered.... Say you’re 180 Pounds; you could pretty much become any animal or fictional creature, but you’d still be 180 Pounds..... That’s pretty big for a mouse, but pretty small for a Tiger..... The bonus is you could take on the FASE properties of that Animal, such as Swimming with gills or Flight with wings.....

Item: This allowed your Shape Shifter to take the form of various objects and items... A common power stunt is the ability to form weapons or tools.... This Category also required support from the other categories.


The Table we used was pretty complex, but it could also work for Matter / Energy Manipulation (Others) as well as Shape Shifting (Self)......

I don’t know if I should try to remake this Old Table...... It was never “Complete”



www.TankerAce.com | www.Arcain.com | www.Viper99.com
Re: Question regarding reasonable power limitations
March 17, 2008 11:17PM
avatar
Quite the interesting concept and table, must have been quite the challenge to develop all of that but it does make for a unique take on those powers and how to express them. I do agree though that many powers are left with player/GM interaction required to install reasonable limitations and interpret things for what is and isn't plausible.

"A shared universe, like any fictional construct, hinges on suspension of disbelief. When continuity is tossed away, it tatters the construct. Undermines it."

-- Peter David

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Nightmask Character Sheet

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Paragon Character Sheet

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Complete list of my characters various forum URLs, over 30 to enjoy!

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Godiva Character Sheet

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Seraphim Character Sheet

[www.furaffinity.net] Art by Marvel Comic's artist Rusty Haller!

[www.furaffinity.net] Artist/writer/Creator of The Extinctioners Independent super-hero comic!

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Sappho Character Sheet

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Cornucopia Character Sheet

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Nightmares of Futures Past Ongoing Story

[www.classicmarvel.com] - There is no such thing as too powerful Forum Thread

TSR is a registered trademark owned by TSR Inc. TSR inc. is a subsidiary of Wizards of the Coast, Inc., a division of Hasbro, Inc. Names(s) of character(s) and the distinctive likeness(es) thereof are Trademarks and © of Marvel Characters, Inc. and are used without permission.

Names(s) of character(s) and the distinctive likeness(es) thereof are Trademarks and © of DC Comics and are used without permission. This site is not intended to make money. It provides resources to players of a game no longer being produced.