Fantastic Four talents question

Perhaps making a list of heroes who got the Leadership talent according to the TSR advanced MSH game ( core supplements anyway ) and compare Reed with them. see if there is a weak point.

The invisible woman idea capo is actually right on. there was a couple of story arcs that brought up her innate leader skills.

Not a bad suggestion to compare Reed with other proven leaders to see if he really measures up (I don't feel he does but doesn't mean someone can't show me well-reasoned arguments and comparisons to prove me wrong).

I agree that the Invisible Woman shows more reason to have Leadership talent than Reed does. If anything she's really the one who helps hold the FF together as well as integrate others into the group when necessary. She draws Reed out and gets him to think outside his lab, gets Johnny to cooperate, and helps sooth Ben's feelings when he's ready to give up. While Reed might be considered the leader I think Susan's the real leader and runs things from the sidelines (one reason why her husband likely didn't tell her about his Illuminati stuff or work on the Civil War, because she'd have talked him out of it).

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Nightmask Wrote:

" Not a bad suggestion to compare Reed with other
proven leaders to see if he really measures up (I
don't feel he does but doesn't mean someone can't
show me well-reasoned arguments and comparisons to
prove me wrong. "

Taarna says: I still think my points about Reed having to deal with family related issues and
lead at the same time, winning with only 4 members, none of which as a powerful as say Thor
are being understated.

A few Reed Richards leadership awards.

1 ) Changed the plans of Galactus. Galactus, one of the top 3 most powerful beings in the
Marvel Universe gave Richards his word not to attack earth.

2 ) Defeated Psycho Man in his micro universe, by figuring out how to escape a tube prison,
and defeating Pyscho's man's robot.

3 ) Defeated most of Doom's plots. Pick one.

4 ) Had Eternity, who is tied for the 1st most powerful Marvel being testify for him, saying
that Reed was right to spare the life of Galactus, as Galacuts is a necessary part of the universe!

5 ) Saved many planets

6 ) 2nd to Iron man in the super hero civil war, and the brains behind the opperation.

I'm sure there is more to add.

None of those are actual examples of leadership though. Most of your examples are of Reed, by himself, doing the work that saved the day instead of taking a diverse group of people and using those varied talents organizing a team effort to succeed. Most people end up an afterthought to Reed and he only calls on them if he requires them for his plot, like when he used Thor's hammer to save the life of Galactus. There isn't any leadership involved in going 'Hey Galactus please don't eat my world it would be wrong', and Eternity saying Reed was right to save Galactus again demonstrates no leadership potential on his part. If anything it reinforces the belief that he's not a leader by how often he's shown going it alone or believig only he can save the day.

As far as the family issues go it's not the same thing at all. Family is a different dynamic and gives ways of controlling and getting your way a leader can't make use of ('You can forget about sleeping with me tonight Reed if you go ahead with that plan'). Much like we see Susan getting on Johnny's case and he ends up submitting to her as his older sister. There's also no value in comparing the relative strengths and weaknesses of the FF to others; whether it be Thor, The Silver Surfer, or the Hulk as it's not relevant to whether or not someone's a good leader.

Captain America when he first took over the Avengers after he was thawed had one of the weakest teams around and yet still defeated many powerful foes that they weren't expected to win against. Indeed he and they were often negatively reviewed in the press because of their low power levels with headlines questioning what good they'd really be with Thor, Hulk, or Giant Man on the team.

We don't see such questions with regards to the FF, when the Thing is up around the Unearthly strength level, Johnny Storm can unleash a nova blast of flame capable of vaporizing a skyscraper, the Invisible Woman can create a force field that's as deadly as it is protective, and Reed Richards has one of the most brilliant and deadly minds mankind's ever produced. Their team lacks for nothing when it comes to raw power. It's merely Reed's ability to solve problems that gives the illusion he's a good leader by presenting a solution to a problem, but the people who go along with him are often reluctant and sometimes even coerced rather than inspired.

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Ok, I suppose Reed's leadership is when Doom's was thought to be dead and Krastoff ( Spelling ) launched the Baxter building into space. Reed told the team to play dead then creatively used the Invisible Woman’s power to create a gilder in space, and the Human tough as the heat shield, flying from space into the atmosphere to land in Dooms Castle? Good enough?

What are Captain America examples of leadership?

Also, I thought the Avengers early line up had the Hulk, Iron Man and Thor in it. Come on, these three alone are power house hero's.

Taarna Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Ok, I suppose Reed's leadership is when Doom's was
> thought to be dead and Krastoff ( Spelling )
> launched the Baxter building into space. Reed told
> the team to play dead then creatively used the
> Invisible Woman’s power to create a gilder in
> space, and the Human tough as the heat shield,
> flying from space into the atmosphere to land in
> Dooms Castle? Good enough?

That was still Reed directing his family, where are examples of him handling the roll of leadership of a group outside that of his family?

> What are Captain America examples of leadership?

He handled the war with Kang when he conquered the earth and lead the Avengers to victory over him and his troops, ran the heroes during the Secret Wars, organized for the Kree-Sh'iar war (even if it's been retconned out of existence), and events I haven't my comics featuring him available to point to. He's even gotten his enemies to fight on his side against a greater foe and submit to his planning, as his opponents still respect him for his skill and determination.

> Also, I thought the Avengers early line up had the
> Hulk, Iron Man and Thor in it. Come on, these
> three alone are power house hero's.

Of which all left the Avengers at the time Captain America took over. He had Hawkeye, Quicksilver, and Scarlet Witch as his Avengers team (and someone else I'm forgetting who was also a low-powered hero). Not a one of those is a powerhouse by any stretch at the time (obviously clarifications have to be made in regards to Scarlet Witch and her upgrading to CL1000 Reality Manipulation).

I think you're ignoring or forgetting that even with those powerhouses the threats the team deals with at the time are at their level or above, so it still requires leadership and teamwork to get the most out of that power, especially given how difficult it is to get them to behave and cooperate.

In the end if you want him to have Leadership in your campaigns you can, but there just aren't any qualified examples in the comics that would be a good foundation for him really having that talent.

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Nightmask makes some great points, but let's look at something for a second.

Captain America has successfully been the leader of Mr. Fantastic, Invisible Woman, and the Thing, as all of those characters have had stints on the Avengers while Steve Rogers was in charge. Can Reed say that he's handled teams with Black Panther, Quicksilver, Hawkeye, or iron Man on the roster? Not even close. Reed has been shown time and again to relate to people poorly, with the exception of his family, and all of his family members get fed up with Reed far more often than the worst hotheads on the Avengers get fed up with Cap. As far as Cyclops goes, hell, he's even run groups if disparate heroes who all accepted him as the leader without argument [House of M]. Even Wolverine who gives Cyclops the hardest of times has stayed on the X-Men without leaving longer than nearly anyone, and for the vast majority of the time, his field leader was, you guessed it, Cyclops. Reed has never been in charge of a group of heroes he's not used to working with, and especially never ran a group of heroes easilly equalling more than a dozen. He usually can handle at maximum a third of that number, all of whom he's known for a whole lot of years.

Captain America's examples of leadership? Wow...

Led the field forces against Thanos in Infinity Guantlet.

Led the Expeditionary force to track down the Inifity Watch in Infinity War.

Led the Avengers and the Guardians of the Galaxy against Korvac.

Led the Avengers to defeating Kang [pick one]

Led the Avengers to victory in the Kree/Skrull War.

Led the Avengers to victory in Operation: Galactic Storm [Kree/Shi'Ar War]

Led the heroes on Battleworld [Secret Wars 1]

Led the Avengers to the ultimate confrontation against the Beyonder on Earth [Secret Wars 2]

Led the Avengers in battle against the Squadron Supreme

Led 3 of the 4 members of the Fantastic Four as Avengers

Led the New Avengers team which included non-team players such as Wolverine, Luke Cage, and Spider-Man

Led the leasdt powerful team in Avengers History - Cap's Quirky Quartet [Cap, Hawkeye, Quicksilver, Scarlet Witch. later the Black Panther]

Cap has gotten Kings and Gods to follow his lead as a matter of course [Thor, Namor, Black Panther, Gilgamesh, Sersi (eternals fancy themselves as licing gods above humanity), Star Fox]

Cap has led multiple superhero teams [The Avengers, the Invaders, the All-Winners Squad]


Honestly, Reed can't weven begin to compare.

You know, sometimes I get the impression that Wolverine's half the time only giving the leader a hard time to force him to rise to his best as he rarely pushes things too far and instead backs off after getting his point(s) made. Plus with his having a thing for Jean Grey he often hassled Cyclops just because of the sexual tension but was too old and exerienced to let that get in the way of following a qualified leader which he obviously did rate Cylcops as after some 'settling in' time.

That list on the other hand clearly marks a fine litany of milestones marking how great a leader Captain America is and why Steve Rogers was the only hero with a 100 popularity and rates almost a power of Leadership as he almost takes it beyond the boundaries of what a talent could.

Reed's got a lot of great things going for him, but it's not disparaging to say that he's not a fitting member of the group of heroes with Leadership Talent but just a simple statement of fact. He lives his life for learning and science and people are just outside his ability to understand enough to lead, just like the Thinker for all his ability to predict human behavior doesn't rate Leadership talent even though he's run at least a few gangs of his own. You don't have to have Leadership talent to run a group and just because you run a group doesn't mean you'll learn the Leadershpi talent. It just means you're average instead of exceptional in that roll. So Reed's only average or poor at leading so has no talent at it but others like Cyclops and Captain America excel at it and have a Talent for it.

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But Capo,

You didn't address my questions or my points. My argument is not that Reed is the best leader
in Marvel. My argument is Reed has a hard team to lead do to personal relationships, and has the
least amount of power on his team to get the job done.

Do you agree or disagree with this?

Well Taarna, you did make the assertion that Reed is a better leader than Cap because of Reed's encounters with Galactus, et. al. I felt I needed to point out how much leadership quality Cap brings to the table.

Now, back to Reed.

He /barely/ keeps his family together. He put a mutant inhibitor in his kid, and darling Sue took off to live with Namor. Thing's left the FF more times than I'm probably even aware of. The glue of the FF, and this is by Reed's own admission, is Sue. She's the bridge between all of the personality extremes represented by Reed, ben, and Johnny. Without Sue, Reed can't hold that group together because he's too aloof and stuck in his own head. Like I said before, of anyone in the FF, Sue deserves to get Leadership. Even looking at all of the familial qualities you mention as correlating to a talent in leadership, all of those qualities rest with Sue, not Reed.

The dificulties Reed has with his team are no more or less strenuous than any other Marvel leader has to deal with. Captain America had to deal with the mutant daughter of Magneto being married to a freakin Robot of all things on his team. Cyclops has had to deal with career criminals [Gambit] and Millionaire Playboys [Angel] on his team. So the dynamics are tough yes, but no togher than anything any other leader puts up with, and in Reed's case, he usually delegates the morale building and actual engaging of his teammates to his wife.

As far as Power, I have no idea how powers correllate to leadership, but the FF are sick powerful. The FF together can do almost like 300 points of damage a turn to any one target. There are plenty of X-Men and Avengers lineups that have less oomf.

Capo says " Well Taarna, you did make the assertion that Reed is a better leader than Cap because of Reed's encounters with Galactus, et. al. I felt I needed to point out how much leadership quality Cap brings to the table."

Taarna Says: On certain missions, yes I think Reed is a better choice for leader. They are space related,
and mystic/ magic related missions.

Capo says " The dificulties Reed has with his team are no more or less strenuous than any other Marvel leader has to deal with. Captain America had to deal with the mutant daughter of Magneto being married to a freakin Robot of all things on his team. Cyclops has had to deal with career criminals [Gambit] and Millionaire Playboys [Angel] on his team. So the dynamics are tough yes, but no togher than anything any other leader puts up with, and in Reed's case, he usually delegates the morale building and actual engaging of his teammates to his wife. "

Taarna says: Reed has daily issues family / friends issues to juggle on his team. The others in almost all
cases do not, nor do they have children. I feel your not giving any ground here, and you're too smart
of a guy not to. IMO, no leader functions well with a wife, best friend and brother in-law to boss around.
I do agree that his wife is the glue for the bitterness that breaks out too often in the group.

Capo says " As far as Power, I have no idea how powers correllate to leadership, but the FF are sick powerful. The FF together can do almost like 300 points of damage a turn to any one target. There are plenty of X-Men and Avengers lineups that have less oomf. "

Taarna says " Maybe so, but line up wise the Fantastic Four seems to have fewer people, and that
makes it harder to get the job done. Its a numbers thing. In general I think Captain America's
Avengers have a more powerful line up. Teams with Thor on it should almost never lose.

Well, be that as it may, you don't lecture any ol university freshman on advanced quantum theory and expect any understanding. You start with the basics and then you progressively build on them. Reed is generally thoughtless of where his "target audience" stands, and acts like he's talking to a group of genius all holding PhD's in various fields.

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"You just decided *all by yourselves* that you are the Earth's protectors. And that you, and *only* you, not your teammates or family, are trustworthy enough to include in the process..."

T'Challa, The New Avengers: Illuminati 1

Sure, there are certain missions where Reed is probably better suited to spearhead. But the thing where Reed is lacking, is that the group that accompanies him is a small select circle of people that can handle the way Reed relates to them. If it's just a mish mash of whoever you can get to fill a roster, Reed is not going to be able to connect the way a leader should, and the mission could very well fail. The difference with Cap or Cyclops, is that you can give them just about anyone, and they can turn lemons into lemonade. I think this is a paramount quality a leader needs to possess, and Reed doesn't have it.

Reed does have daily issues as a family man, granted. The downside is that Reed isn't the one who handles them day to day. it's Sue keeping everything else together while Reed is off being brilliant in his lab. And other Leaders have done just as good a job of balancing family and leadership. Cyclops is the prime example. He led X-Factor with Jean on his roster, and baby Nathan Christopher for dozens of issues of X-Facotr. in the X-Men, Cyclops led with his wife, and Cable both on the roster, cable being the grown up version of his son [who's now technically older than his dad] from the future. And Cyclops not only balances his family issues, but effectively makes a connection to those he leads.

The Fantastic Four may not have numbers, but they have a whole lot of power on their squad. Cap's first team of Avengers he led was a quartet as well. Cap, Quicksilver, Scarlet Witch, and Hawkeye. And they were able to take out threats that they had no business engaging, but Cap's superior leadership and ability to squeeze every ounce of potential his squad had tipped the scales. If Reed got saddled with a team of Wolverine, Black Widow, and Brother Voodoo, I think he'd just wind up throwing his stretchy arms way up in the air in frustration and disgust.

Most universities that I am aware require students to achieve certain prerequisites before they are even allowed to enroll in certain courses. Afterall, you can't just lecture any ol' freshman on advanced quantum theory and expect any sort of understanding. Such an expectation would be pure ignorance and a waste of everyone's time.

Reed thinks out loud, on a level HE understands. He doesn't teach, with any respect to the understanding of his teammates.... thus the reaction he generally gets from his teammates when spouting all of his technical jargon.

There simply is no comparing what Reed does with the structured process embodied in institutions of higher, or lower, learning.

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"You just decided *all by yourselves* that you are the Earth's protectors. And that you, and *only* you, not your teammates or family, are trustworthy enough to include in the process..."

T'Challa, The New Avengers: Illuminati 1

My opinion on Reed's leadership is that he is mediocre at best. He is the patriarch of his little family clique and that is what got him the role as leader of the F.F. to begin with. It was almost by default. It's like saying dad is the boss. Yeah, well, duh.

He certainly doesn't have more of a task before him in terms of leadership than Cap does. To say nothing of the other personality types that have had a place on the Avengers, Cap has successfully led *GODS*, based on their respect for him and NOT any kind of manmade rules that said these gods HAD TO follow him.

And of course, one of a leaders strengths is his ability to accurately @#$%& a situation and then apply his available resources in the most appropriate manner. So, no matter if a certain campaign requires vast technical or magical know-how... Cap will draw on the knowledge and experience of those teammates that hold expertise in those fields.

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"You just decided *all by yourselves* that you are the Earth's protectors. And that you, and *only* you, not your teammates or family, are trustworthy enough to include in the process..."

T'Challa, The New Avengers: Illuminati 1

I just read the newest issue of FF, and this illustrate's Powersurge's point exactly. Reed and Ben go to a school for superhero appreciation day or something, and Reed tries to teach a class of elementary school kids the physics of Galactus' armor, for an hour and a half, and then tries to segue into how 9 of the world's richest nations should share the costs of the resources needed to expell galactus, because Reed used a machine that costs 1 billion dollars a second to opperate due to the power it required. The kids were so bored it was painful> They didn't liven up again until Thing suggested all the kids play around in the Fantasticar.

Reed simply is terrible at relating to people. Without Sue as a buffer, Reed's an island, not a leader.