Fantastic Four talents question

Considering the degree to which Reed Richards is constantly lecturing those around him, which is often the others in the group, after years if not more than a decade of such is it too much a stretch to believe that the others have picked up other talents than they're credited with?

They're all college graduates (and Ben Grimm in particular has been listening to Reed since said college days) and intelligent (the Human Torch depicted to have a great deal of hidden potential during one annual featuring Kosmos and Kubik) so by now wouldn't they all have picked up a talent in Electronics or perhaps Engineering, if not both? Considering how much they've needed to understand in order to impliment Reed's plans over the years and he's constantly trying to teach them at least some of that should have rubbed off on them by now.

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Quote
Considering the degree to which Reed Richards is constantly lecturing those around him, which is often the others in the group, after years if not more than a decade of such is it too much a stretch to believe that the others have picked up other talents than they're credited with?

Ben Grimm was an accomplished pilot / fighter before he meet Reed. Sue Strom was an actress, and Johnny had some auto mechanic skills of his own. While Reed might have exposed the others to pick up talents, I think a character has to have the knack for a particular talent to obtain it.

Speaking of talents, I think Reed should have the " leadership " talent. The Marvell games do not credit him with it though. I also think Reed agility for dodging purposes should be at least Remarkable.

Delete. Duplicate post.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/18/2008 10:17AM by Taarna.

you have to define in your mind what a talent is.

In my mind a talent is a skill that you have picked up either through a recognised occupation or through dedictated long term training and practise.

Most of my friends are laywers and I spend a lot of time with them but I wouldn't even think to know enough to have the talent Law, which is gained generally in Marvel through attending law college. In the same way most criminals have some understanding of Law but are not skilled enough to have the talent.

To alter something by +cs whilst might seem little in game terms in reality is a huge step. You are effectivly boosting a stat by that CS in for a specific purpose or sometimes like the psyche ones for virtually all uses. The karma cost to raise a stat is very high and in proportion whilst the cost of a talent is lower it is still importantly expensive.

A talent is more that a psssing knowledge gained through general experience. It is the ability to be recognised as an expert in your chosen field, be Law, Medicine, Wrestling or Magic.

FNG

I'd say that if any of the members of the F.F. were paying diligent attention to what Reed was saying, in the sense an apprentice might, than maybe. However, I think that everyone just wants the gist of it so they can do whatever they have to do and get it over with. No one really cares about all of the technical yack Reed does, and Reed isn't exactly a teacher considering how he always talks over everyone's head.

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Considering what I remember from college at least some universities are set-up where it's little more than lecturing everyone in the room and check at the end to see if they learned enough to qualify for a passing grade in the class which isn't much different than Reed doing the same thing all the time to Johnny, Ben, and Susan. Given we've seen Johnny build at least one of the craft flown by the team I'd say he at least ought to have more than just Automotive Mechanics for a talent and be more in the line of Engineering and/or Electronics, plus Pilot (although not as good as Ben of course).

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What do the posters think about Mr. Fantastic not getting a leadership talent or a dodging +CS in the Marvel game? I think he was gimped.

Also, Reed developed tech based brass knuckles. What are the stats on them?

I've never seen Reed as having Leadership; sure he appears to be a leader but that's only because of the close familial relationship with the rest of the FF (wife, brother-in-law, best friend) who defer to his direction, but when he's in charge of non-FF members he doesn't manage as well. He's also terrible at being part of a team where he's not in charge and often will disregard orders by the leader to do his own thing, as we saw during the short period that the FF were part of the Avengers when Captain America called on him for something and Reed wasn't there but off doing his own thing to solve the problem his way.

I'm not sure that Reed could be said to have a conventional dodge bonus since he's actually using his powers to deform his body at will to try and move it out of alignment with an attack. He might be allowed a dodge check at a CS or two penalty based on his Plasticity power rank but that's more of a power stunt than a natural dodge talent.

Are you referring to those Vibranium Knuckles he uses on rare occasion to deal with sound or vibration-based opponents like Klaw?

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Nightmask Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I've never seen Reed as having Leadership; sure he
> appears to be a leader but that's only because of
> the close familial relationship with the rest of
> the FF (wife, brother-in-law, best friend) who
> defer to his direction, but when he's in charge of
> non-FF members he doesn't manage as well. He's
> also terrible at being part of a team where he's
> not in charge and often will disregard orders by
> the leader to do his own thing, as we saw during
> the short period that the FF were part of the
> Avengers when Captain America called on him for
> something and Reed wasn't there but off doing his
> own thing to solve the problem his way.
>
> I'm not sure that Reed could be said to have a
> conventional dodge bonus since he's actually using
> his powers to deform his body at will to try and
> move it out of alignment with an attack. He might
> be allowed a dodge check at a CS or two penalty
> based on his Plasticity power rank but that's more
> of a power stunt than a natural dodge talent.
>
> Are you referring to those Vibranium Knuckles he
> uses on rare occasion to deal with sound or
> vibration-based opponents like Klaw?


1 ) Reed directs his team to thwart Galactus, Negative Zone Villians, and Doom. In the 1st secret wars, Richards was asked to be leader first, he declined, but still played a key role.

2 ) Yeah. Reed's powers seem to make him hard to hit. Far more than typical agility. I think he dodges on the Remarkable level.

3 ) I seen Reed have those power knuckles vs Doom. I think the ones vs Klaw were different. What are the stats here?

Taarna, I think you make a very solid point on Reed's dodge abilty. keep his agility where it's at but giving him the dodge talent could work- I picked 9 random FF's comics and looked at them - 8 of the 9 had him dodging and getting out of the way of the attack. we take for granted Spiderman and his dodge skill but would you give Spiderman the dodge talent??? Reed may deserve it ( under the radar )

As for leadership- he did not deserve that talent early on in his FF career- but if Capocastillo said that the MU current continuity is 13 years in ( old ) one could rationalize his gaining this talent in his long career.

and yet the old talent rank instead of just the +1CS or +2CS- discussion comes to mind---- Cap America's Leadership is superior than what Reed's leadership would be but the game the bonus ( I think ) would be the same.

I just don't see Reed Richards having leadership; many are a little too quick to put Leadership talent on anyone who leads a team when that's not a necessity to lead. All you have to do is look at the news to see the efforts to choose someone to 'lead' the US and know that sometimes it's just a popularity contest or someone's chosen for reasons other than the ability to be a leader and do things that would keep a group working together cohesively. If anything Reed's too often divisive in groups where other strong personalities exist as he attempts to force his view on everyone else (just look at how he handle the Civil War, he built prisons in another dimension to eliminate civil rights and due process).

As far as the Leadership talent goes it works hand in hand with the Popularity of the hero or villain in question; Captain America's power as a leader comes in part from his huge popularity and personal charisma, items Reed Richards doesn't have. Unfortunately the game's not set up for handling varying levels of Leadership potential, at least not as a single talent or power and is a combination of factors. One might add in supplimental talents to broaden the reach, with Captain America considered to be the one or just one of a few rare individuals to have all these Leadership talents (which also means considering Hitler to also possess those talents and during his time in 'his' germany as having a 100 Popularity).

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I don't read comic cover to cover anymore, and I'd like to pretend this civil war between hero's over registration did not happen. I did peek at a civil war issue or two, and it seems like Reed used some mathematical social formula to justify registration.

I agree than Captain America is probably the best leader out there, though he is not an ideal leader in my opinion for campaigns outside the earth that require higher reasoning, or mystic talents to win.

I also beleive that hero's like Professor X, Nick Furry, Mr. Fantastic, and others like them has leadership ability, and should get a karma bonus ( see leadership talent ) when directing groups. Maybe not as much as Captain America, but something for sure.

Regarding the Fantastic four, they are a family oriented group. The Avengers are a military group, and the X-men are closer to a minority race. Members of Military Group or Minority groups tend to follow orders far better than family members.

As for Mr. Fantastic strength, by no means is it Typical. I have seen him pick up the Thing, who is 500 pounds and other heavy related equipment. In the comics, Mr. Fantastic strength is more like Excellent.

Here’s my version of Mr. Fantastic, with the ***** being the things I would change to better reflect the classic marvel comics I used to read from 1967-1993. IMO, the Marvel game gimped his character.

Mister Fantastic:

Fighting: Excellent*****
Agility + Typical
Strength: Excellent
Endurance: Remarkable
Reason: Amazing
Intuition: Excellent
Psyche: Remarkable

Health: 76
Karma: 100

Powers
- Elongation: Monstrous, up to 1500 feet
- Plasticity: Monstrous with the following effects

- Form a bouncing ball with Monstrous Agility and Good speed.
- Dodge with Remarkable ability due to flexible forms*****
- form a glider with Feeble airspeed
- Form parachute for up to 4 people
- Good disguise ability
- Formless puddle to flow through almost any opening
- Amazing ability to assume any geometric shape
- Amazing ability to become as thin as paper
- Grapple with Remarkable strength up to 4 targets


- Body Armor:
- -5CS damage from blunt attacks
- Remarkable vs. other physical attacks
- Good vs. energy attacks
- Hyper-Invention: Reed has the Monstrous ability to comprehend/design/repair technology.
- Hyper-Intelligence: Reed's natural mental abilities were enhanced by the mutation. Should his powers be negated his mental attributes drop by -1CS.


Talents:
Electronics, Engineering, Physics, Repair/Tinker, ***** Leadership The Hero with leadership talent is a natural born leader. If this Character forms a karma pool with a team then that pool receives a 50 point bonus, provided that this character is recognized as the team leader. When the leader leaves, the 50 points go with him. The leader does not gain them, they simply leave the pool. Only one leader per team.

Taarna Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I don't read comic cover to cover anymore, and I'd
> like to pretend this civil war between hero's over
> registration did not happen. I did peek at a civil
> war issue or two, and it seems like Reed used some
> mathematical social formula to justify
> registration.

Yes, he's supposedly created a 'real' version of the Psychohistory mathematics from the Isaac Asimov Foundation novel series to accurate predict human behavior. Using that he decided to justify inhumane actions for what he convinced himself was the greater good, much like that group of geniuses in Star Trek: DS9 were set to sell out the Federation because they predicted in a thousand years it'd all fall apart and things'd be fine and wasn't worth the long-shot that the Federation might win.

> I agree than Captain America is probably the best
> leader out there, though he is not an ideal leader
> in my opinion for campaigns outside the earth that
> require higher reasoning, or mystic talents to
> win.

Cap's outwitted a lot of villains who were far smarter than him, since they weren't smarter than him when it came to tactics or being leaders and inspiring others to fight for him.

> I also beleive that hero's like Professor X, Nick
> Furry, Mr. Fantastic, and others like them has
> leadership ability, and should get a karma bonus (
> see leadership talent ) when directing groups.
> Maybe not as much as Captain America, but
> something for sure.

Well Nick Fury should have Leadership, as should Professor X, since both have extensive experience handling varied groups and rotating memberships. Reed though doesn't as he's used to quick service from the others out of family loyalty rather than real leadership skill.

> Regarding the Fantastic four, they are a family
> oriented group. The Avengers are a military group,
> and the X-men are closer to a minority race.
> Members of Military Group or Minority groups tend
> to follow orders far better than family members.
>
> As for Mr. Fantastic strength, by no means is it
> Typical. I have seen him pick up the Thing, who is
> 500 pounds and other heavy related equipment. In
> the comics, Mr. Fantastic strength is more like
> Excellent.

I don't think his strength is higher than Typical, events like him appearing to lift the Thing are reflected by his high power rank giving him an apparent strength of Excellent. You'll notice you never see him in his normal human form lifting anything close to the weight of the Thing, it's all tied up with his powers.

> Here’s my version of Mr. Fantastic, with the
> ***** being the things I would change to better
> reflect the classic marvel comics I used to read
> from 1967-1993. IMO, the Marvel game gimped his
> character.
>
> Mister Fantastic:
>
> Fighting: Excellent*****
> Agility + Typical
> Strength: Excellent
> Endurance: Remarkable
> Reason: Amazing
> Intuition: Excellent
> Psyche: Remarkable
>
> Health: 76
> Karma: 100
>
> Powers
> - Elongation: Monstrous, up to 1500 feet
> - Plasticity: Monstrous with the following
> effects
>
> - Form a bouncing ball with Monstrous Agility
> and Good speed.
> - Dodge with Remarkable ability due to flexible
> forms*****
> - form a glider with Feeble airspeed
> - Form parachute for up to 4 people
> - Good disguise ability
> - Formless puddle to flow through almost any
> opening
> - Amazing ability to assume any geometric shape
>
> - Amazing ability to become as thin as paper
> - Grapple with Remarkable strength up to 4
> targets
>
>
> - Body Armor:
> - -5CS damage from blunt attacks
> - Remarkable vs. other physical attacks
> - Good vs. energy attacks
> - Hyper-Invention: Reed has the Monstrous
> ability to comprehend/design/repair technology.
> - Hyper-Intelligence: Reed's natural mental
> abilities were enhanced by the mutation. Should
> his powers be negated his mental attributes drop
> by -1CS.

Reed original Reason was always Amazing; the idea his intelligence drops when his powers are negated is more a result of a writer inflicting that limitation on him rather than it ever being like that at the start. If you want to keep that limitation it's more appropriate to describe it as a result of the mutation affecting his brain chemistry and causing a measure of brain damage that rendered his RIP dependent upon the powers to retain his original RIP ranks.

> Talents:
> Electronics, Engineering, Physics, Repair/Tinker,
> ***** Leadership The Hero with leadership talent
> is a natural born leader. If this Character forms
> a karma pool with a team then that pool receives a
> 50 point bonus, provided that this character is
> recognized as the team leader. When the leader
> leaves, the 50 points go with him. The leader does
> not gain them, they simply leave the pool. Only
> one leader per team.

Reed's got a few more talents than that, including Chemistry, Superhuman Physiology, Metallurgy, and Mathematics, although as I've already stated I don't feel he's got Leadership. Good write-up overall though.

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" Nightmask Wrote:

>
> Cap's outwitted a lot of villains who were far
> smarter than him, since they weren't smarter than
> him when it came to tactics or being leaders and
> inspiring others to fight for him. "

Taarna replies: Yes, but I don't think Cap is the right man to lead a team where high reason, magic, or alien worlds are in play. Cap is a great leader, but like I said, the Avengers are a military type of group used to following orders. The Fantastic four is a family type of group. Try ordering around your wife, brother in law and best friend. Its not easy! Heck-- any man who can order his wife around is can be viewed as my hero. Just kidding.

Nightmask says:"

> Well Nick Fury should have Leadership, as should
> Professor X, since both have extensive experience
> handling varied groups and rotating memberships.
> Reed though doesn't as he's used to quick service
> from the others out of family loyalty rather than
> real leadership skill."

Taarna replies: I agree with Nick Fury and Professor X. Disagree with Reed.

Nightmask says: " I don't think his strength is higher than Typical,
> events like him appearing to lift the Thing are
> reflected by his high power rank giving him an
> apparent strength of Excellent. You'll notice you
> never see him in his normal human form lifting
> anything close to the weight of the Thing, it's
> all tied up with his powers."

Taarna replies: If his power enhances his strength to Excellent, then it is Excellent.

Taarna Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> " Nightmask Wrote:
>
> >
> > Cap's outwitted a lot of villains who were far
> > smarter than him, since they weren't smarter
> than
> > him when it came to tactics or being leaders
> and
> > inspiring others to fight for him. "
>
> Taarna replies: Yes, but I don't think Cap is the
> right man to lead a team where high reason, magic,
> or alien worlds are in play. Cap is a great
> leader, but like I said, the Avengers are a
> military type of group used to following orders.
> The Fantastic four is a family type of group. Try
> ordering around your wife, brother in law and best
> friend. Its not easy! Heck-- any man who can
> order his wife around is can be viewed as my hero.
> Just kidding.

Uh, there's nothing military-style about the Avengers. While they have strict rules and regulations for the organization that have grown up over the years there's nothing of the military subservience and training in regards to any of the members (I mean seriously, just try and treat Thor like a peon, or Hawkeye). On the other hand a lot easier to go 'Hey how about helping me out with this?' to someone who's family or a close friend. I mean really that's where you get a lot of problems in the real world where someone blindly trusts and follows a family member and gets into trouble as a result.

> Nightmask says:"
>
> > Well Nick Fury should have Leadership, as
> should
> > Professor X, since both have extensive
> experience
> > handling varied groups and rotating memberships.
>
> > Reed though doesn't as he's used to quick
> service
> > from the others out of family loyalty rather
> than
> > real leadership skill."
>
> Taarna replies: I agree with Nick Fury and
> Professor X. Disagree with Reed.

Noted and respectfully disagree of course.

> Nightmask says: " I don't think his strength is
> higher than Typical,
> > events like him appearing to lift the Thing are
> > reflected by his high power rank giving him an
> > apparent strength of Excellent. You'll notice
> you
> > never see him in his normal human form lifting
> > anything close to the weight of the Thing, it's
> > all tied up with his powers."
>
> Taarna replies: If his power enhances his strength
> to Excellent, then it is Excellent.

I didn't say the power enhances Reed's strength to Excellent, I said it lets him get away with feats requiring Excellent strength when in use. When he's stretching he's able to for example brace himself and lift someone like Ben out of a river before he drowns but it's not Strength it's his power, much like the Invisible Woman can lift heavy weight with her Force Field but can't lift them by herself. Reed's power substitutes for Strength in some situations is all, but doesn't make his strength Excellent.

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I've been meaning to comment on this thread for a while now. mainly because i've never liked the Fantastic Four. Although I am giving them a shot since Millar and Hitch are the creative team, and they're my favorite creatvie out there. Anyways...

I do believe that the FF [Sue, Johnny, and Ben] do have a decent theorhetical knowledge about things like electronics, engineering, computers, etc because of Reed. That is to say, they understand these concepts well enough to use the gadgets that Reed invents. However practical knowledge and application are severely lacking, as Reed is the only one really applying these skills 90% of the time. Because of that I don't feel that they deserve those skills as talents outright.

As far as Reed getting shortchanged on Leadership, I can't help but laugh. He can barely keep his familly from walking out on him because all of his time is spent in the lab instead of being a husband and father. And Sue has left because of Reed's emotional shortsightedness more than once. So the foundation of the 'Family Dynamic as justification for Leadership' is intrinsicly flawed. And other than the FF, Reed has 0 practical experience leading others. He had to hire Luke Cage to replace the Thing for a time, and Luke didn't stick around for very long. Neither did the She Hulk. or She-Thing. Except for the core members, Reed is terrible at establishing a rapport over a long period. As for the Secret Wars argument, yes Reed was asked first, but that's only because he had spent the most time in the Super Hero game spearheading a group. but I guarendamntee that if he led the Secret Wars force, the heroes would have gotten stomped.

Ironicly, Invisible Woman has proven to be an exceptionally capable leader on multiple occaisions, and even being said to be superior in this regard to Reed. She i do feel deserves the leadership talent.

I also feel the need to address the 'Avengers are military and the X-Men are a minority group ala the NAACP'. I find this generalization totally off base and tanamount to nonsense. The X-Men actually spend a great deal of time training for combat [danger room anyone?], they also spend a great deal of time actually, you know, learning things/teaching [they do live at a school...] so if anything the X-Men are more like a military unit than any other group. They even have shared uniforms almost as many times in their history as the FF do. As far as the Avengers, they are what they say they are. Earth's Mightiest Heroes. They are a gathering of defenders that tackle threats that no one of them can handle alone. There's nothing military about their organization other than a Soldier is in the lead. If anything, they're more like a business [most of the time] with Stark providing funding through the Maria Stark foundation, giving everyone salaries, and instituting a charter. just like a company does. There are no ranks, no uniforms, and no strict chain of command. The Avengers are simply the best of all walks, coming together and bringing the pain.

Oh the quip about Cap not handling the big cosmic threats in a leadership role like Reed does? let's see...

Thanos

Kree/Skrull War

Korvac

Operatiion: Galactic Storm

The Elders of the Universe [specificly Grandmaster and Collector]

Death


Shall we go on? Cap has handled his fair share of space crap and came out like a champ.

Capo,

Your nuts if you think the hero's get romped as Reed as their leader in Secret Wars. He was instrumental in figuring out the technologies, and going against Doom and Galactus.

According to Marvel Reed Richards hero in W.W II, and also defeated an Alien before he became Mister Fantastic. If Captain America was in and Richards was out vs Doom, the Cosmic Forces, Magical realms, Demons, Negative Zone Villains, or Aliens, I think the Fantastic Four is finished.

I view the Avengers as rules based organization. They do not argue with orders often if they want to stay on the team. Though I do recall Iron Man and the Hulk not getting along well. The Avengers often have a stacked line up full of power. If you have a guy like Thor on your team, you don’t need a great leader to win.

The X-men have always viewed themselves as outsiders, and have their own political equal rights type of agenda, hence aside from hot head; they tend to follow orders well too.

The Fantastic Four are more of a family based team with no secret identities to hide behind, and no set of rules. They have to live with each other, and such a team is very hard to lead. Like I said, ordering around a wife, best friend and bother in law is extremely difficult. Was Reed Richards a bit aloof? Yes!!! No doubt, but I would argue he needed to be that way because his focus was on matters of more importance to the teams’ overall success.

Taarna,

No direspect, but you don't actually address any of the points I brought up. All you say is that 'you see it this way' or 'you see it that way'. I don't mind you debating my opinions, i encourage it. i like a good argument. But if you want to debate with me, address the points i make and actually give some sort of evidence or example as to why i'm wrong and you're right that goes further than your opinion, otherwise all this discussion boils down to is 'because i said so'.

Just because Reed is good at some things, like exploring other dimensions, or figuring out alien technology doesn't mean he's good at leadership. Would reed have been able to devise ways to beat Galactus or Doom during the secret wars if he was focussed on trying to get a large, unwieldy, and disparate group to trust and follow him as a leader? or would he have been spending so much time inspiring support that he wouldn't have had the necessary time to actually come up with ways to beat the bad guys? If Captain America wasn't spending all of that time solidifying his role as leader on battleworld, would Reed Richards have been able to fill his shoes while still maintainingthe role as being the big brain? Reed Richards can stretch real far, but making more hours in a day isn't something he can do.

You see the Avengers as a military group, but I've been clear how they're much more a business than an army. Do Avengers follow orders in battle? of course. Do they operate like a military unit? Not at all.

And yes, the X-men have a clearly political agenda. But they simply do not function like a civil rights group. The X-men don't protest, they don't lead marches on Washington, they don't send out pamphlets. They defend mutants against threats. They engage threats that are mutants to prevent public opinion from swaying against their kind because one individual mutant is an asshole. Out of any of the top level supergroups out there, they function the most like a military unit, as well as an instructional facility, especially as we've seen since the Grant Morrison Run in 2000.

And yes, the Fantastic Four are the Swiss Family Robinson of the Marvel U. Granted. But that family has been on the brink of disolving on more than one occaision. And just because Reed can cajole his familly, put him in charge of the X-Men, the Avengers, or the Great Lakes Initiative, and Mr. Fantastic would have the leadership qualities or Mr. Stickuphisass.

Capo,

We are miles apart here. It seems like you are not factoring in Richard’s marital problems with his wife, having to deal with a hot head headed adult, and having to deal with his best friend being bitter for being a monster. No other leader has to deal with this.

Leading the Fantastic Four in my opinion is harder than leading the Avengers or X-men because the leaders of those groups don't have to deal with this type of stuff or guilt in general. I have three points to make.

1 ) You mention the Fantastic Four has almost broken up, well there have been dozens of people who left either the Avengers or the X-men at one time or another. Are the leaders of the X-Men and Avengers getting a similar pass for members coming and going? If you blame Richards for having group related problems, then what about those who decided to quit the X-Men or Avengers at one time or another? The truth is the Fantastic Four have had less turnover than any other group.

2 ) As I said before the difference is the Fantastic four are a family type of unit and really cannot leave each other’s lives without isolating themselves from family. Do a fair apples to apples comparison and you will see I have some valid points. To illustrate, suppose Captain America has the following problems that Reed has on his team. Suppose Diamond Back is his wife on the team, and the two have babies in their lives. Emotional problems and nagging women cloud the mind. Suppose Hawkeye is also on the team, and Captain American accidently spilled some ACME on his body and now he is grotesque and grumpy. There’s some guilt which could affect decision making. Now add a real wild card who does not listen to orders like Wolverine. Could Captain America manage all of this? Try that hat on for size if you will and you will see the problems Reed has managing his team.

3 ) I think the Avengers are more powerful roster, and the X-men have more members on their roster. To an extent the better your players are the easier it is to win. The Fantastic four only have four members to make it all work.

^^^I am open for a fair Q and A debate on the three points I posted. The only thing is, I have to draw the line in the early 1990’s because that is when I stopped reading comics!

Perhaps we disagree on what a team leader is. If its charge that hill in a battle give me Captain America. If it’s we have to stop so and so and figure this out in a finite amount of time or the world blows up, I will take Richards.

I want to withdraw the Avengers being a military unit. Perhaps I got a little happy thinking about the Avengers membership charter and its 30+ rules.

Taarna Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Capo,
>
> We are miles apart here. It seems like you are
> not factoring in Richard’s marital problems with
> his wife, having to deal with a hot head headed
> adult, and having to deal with his best friend
> being bitter for being a monster. No other leader
> has to deal with this.

I think you're adding an inordinate amount of weight to dealing with family issues as somehow being proof that one must be a great leader if they can deal with them when that's just not so. Leaders can slip in and master a variety of people and get them to work together for the greater good and Reed just can't do that. His way of analyzing everything around him leaves him unable to connect to others well enough to lead.

> Leading the Fantastic Four in my opinion is harder
> than leading the Avengers or X-men because the
> leaders of those groups don't have to deal with
> this type of stuff or guilt in general. I have
> three points to make.
>
> 1 ) You mention the Fantastic Four has almost
> broken up, well there have been dozens of people
> who left either the Avengers or the X-men at one
> time or another. Are the leaders of the X-Men and
> Avengers getting a similar pass for members coming
> and going? If you blame Richards for having group
> related problems, then what about those who
> decided to quit the X-Men or Avengers at one time
> or another? The truth is the Fantastic Four have
> had less turnover than any other group.

Turnover in a group doesn't necessarily mean the group's leader is bad, it depends on WHY the people left to determine the impact their leadership or lack thereof has on the reason. The Thing left the group at the end of the Secret Wars because Reed refused to tell Ben that he didn't need to remain on Battleworld to change back and forth between human and rocky form at will. He didn't want to admit that he'd failed all those years to realize Ben's mutation had stabilized and that he had complete control over it. The Civil War is not even close to the first time Reed's demonstrated an inability to be a leader.

> 2 ) As I said before the difference is the
> Fantastic four are a family type of unit and
> really cannot leave each other’s lives without
> isolating themselves from family. Do a fair
> apples to apples comparison and you will see I
> have some valid points. To illustrate, suppose
> Captain America has the following problems that
> Reed has on his team. Suppose Diamond Back is his
> wife on the team, and the two have babies in their
> lives. Emotional problems and nagging women cloud
> the mind. Suppose Hawkeye is also on the team, and
> Captain American accidently spilled some ACME on
> his body and now he is grotesque and grumpy.
> There’s some guilt which could affect decision
> making. Now add a real wild card who does not
> listen to orders like Wolverine. Could Captain
> America manage all of this? Try that hat on for
> size if you will and you will see the problems
> Reed has managing his team.

I think you're putting too much weight on the family side again; since going off from the family and forming your own identity outside of it is normal. Everyone sticking together or forced to remain together is the unnatural thing, whether family or not. Reed suffers less pressures overall because of that family dynamic helping cover up for his deficiencies as a leader. Also I think with the Secret Wars we've seen Cap having to lead Wolverine and a variety of conflicting personalities quite well, including Reed. Not the first time Cap's had to lead Wolverine successfully either (they took down Tess-One together for example).

> 3 ) I think the Avengers are more powerful roster,
> and the X-men have more members on their roster.
> To an extent the better your players are the
> easier it is to win. The Fantastic four only have
> four members to make it all work.

Sometimes the Avengers have a more powerful roster than most, when Cap first joined up he had the weakest line-up ever with characters like Hawkeye and Quicksilver and still succeeded. The X-men and Avengers both have had a good-sized membership requiring the person in charge at the time learn to be a leader or be replaced to deal with the changing powers and personalities, Reed on the other hand has generally the same three people with whom he's quite intimately familiar and knows how to push their buttons to get what he wants. That's not the same thing as being a leader, he's just exploiting his knowledge of their personalities and weaknesses to get them to do what he wants and even that doesn't work all the time when he goes too far like with support of the Civil War.

> ^^^I am open for a fair Q and A debate on the
> three points I posted. The only thing is, I have
> to draw the line in the early 1990’s because
> that is when I stopped reading comics!
>
> Perhaps we disagree on what a team leader is. If
> its charge that hill in a battle give me Captain
> America. If it’s we have to stop so and so and
> figure this out in a finite amount of time or the
> world blows up, I will take Richards.

Cap can do just fine in a 'world about to end' situation, he doesn't have to be as intelligent as Reed to save the day. Remember the leader doesn't have to be able to do it all, just see to it that he uses the available resources to him to save the day. An episode of Star Trek: The Next Generation exemplifies that concept most clearly as Deanna Troi is trying to pass the qualifications to be qualified as a commander but can't beat the scenario because she lacks the skill to solve the emergency by herself. Only when she realizes that it's a test of her accepting her limitations and delegating, even if it means the death of a subordinate and friend does she succeed.

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