Norse Evil??

Posted by G.A.W. 
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Norse Evil??
January 28, 2008 08:28AM
Only partly connected to Marvel comics but i have an important question regarding norse Mythology- which I know just a little bit of.

Is there any gods of Norse mythology that are considered evil with a sphere of influence of evil it would try to spread???
I realize Hela and Loki in Marvel comics are portrayed as evil but those are Marvels versions- How about real Norse MYTH???

If Loki or Hela are just a bad tempered trickster and an incarnation of death/underworld is that really evil??

I'm looking for a real EVIL NORSE GOD. is there any???
Re: Norse Evil??
January 28, 2008 08:44AM
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I think traditionally Loki started off more chaotic and neutral with regards to good and evil but as time passed and he was punished so severely for his jokes (millenia being burned by the agonizing drip of poisonous venom on your head can't possibly encourage coming out of things a good person) he lost his good leanings and became thoroughly evil (those prophesies that he'd turn on the gods likely didn't help and ended up self-fullfilling as they abused him enough he became the evil that they feared).

Most death gods get treated as inherently evil more because of human feelings regarding death (the Egyptians were more neutral in that regard and saw it as more neutral in regards to their death gods) rather than being actively evil. Death gods tend to just have a 'well we know everything must end and we have a place in that cycle' rather than feel their 'job' is to actively spread death (although a worshipper might come up with that belief independent of church teachings).

You'll probably have to wait on Powersurge or one of the others with more recent studies on the norse religion though to get a definitive answer as to whether or not the existing pantheon includes some inherently evil gods and if so which ones. I can't remember if he actively worships them or if anyone else here does but some have been reviving the worship of the Norse gods (and some of the other pantheons like the Roman gods) so might be easier to refer to it as a religion rather than a mythology (heck if people can call scientology and so many of the new-age things as religions should definitely refer to something that's existed for thousands of years as a religion).

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Re: Norse Evil??
January 28, 2008 11:32AM
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I think that 'Evil' was more represented in the Norse Mythos in characterizations of monsters and demons. Though what our culture considers 'evil' and what vikings considered 'evil' are probably vastly different. But creatures like the Midgard Serpent and some of the Giants and Trolls guys like Thor and Tyr fought were supposed to be more allegorical to an evil 'archetype' than say Loki, who was still kind of a prick regardless.

Re: Norse Evil??
January 28, 2008 11:59AM
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I always thought it a bit amusing that some of the older deity books for AD&D allowed for Loki to have Good-aligned clerics, at least in campaigns set well before Ragnarok because they considered him chaotic neutral initially. That's not that surprising though given that earlier on Loki used his trickery to save the day when brute force wouldn't. Probably one of the reasons a warrior culture had problems with someone like him as he wasn't straightforward but instead tricked his opponents into their losses beyond the general dislike we all have of someone using as as the butt of their jokes and humiliating us for their or everyone else's amusement.

"A shared universe, like any fictional construct, hinges on suspension of disbelief. When continuity is tossed away, it tatters the construct. Undermines it."

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Re: Norse Evil??
January 28, 2008 02:50PM
Here's a link of all the Norse gods and their place in Norse Mythology.

[www.infoplease.com]

Enjoy.

"Fer the love of my sweet Community...RAGNARöK"
Re: Norse Evil??
January 28, 2008 05:33PM
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One of the prerequisites of godhood in Anglo-Nordic thougth is benevolence toward divine and human society, so there has never been a *deity* of evil. "Evil deity" is, like, an oxymoron. Loki is no deity.

Evil is a word Germanic in origin and references any force that works to breakdown the organic wholeness of an organism (eg. an individual) or macro-organism (eg. a community). First and foremost, it is an action with intent forming a mitigating factor, and as the Sayings of Odhinn state, "no man is so evil that he is not without some redeeming quality, nor any man so good that he is not without some fault", so it is not surprising that there is no comicbook-like being that is cast as evil incarnate in Germanic myth or legend. Afterall, many forces work to breakdown the (w)holiness of a society, from the mindless forces of nature (which lack intent) to other societies, and even a medical doctor must often cause small harms in order to effect an overall cure, eg. surgery.

In ancient Germanic crime and punishment, there were two forms of execution for capital offenses. The first, reserved for "criminals" and closely associated with Odhinn, was death by hanging. The second, reserved for offenders whose crimes were also shameful in nature, was death via submersion in a bog. Archeological evidence also indicates that such shameful offenders were ritually multilated prior to submersion and this is further shown by the Germanic treatment of the "spoils of war" prior to the Migration Age... which was all brutalized and thrown into a lake or bog as a wergild (fine) of sorts for the crimes of warfare in that day and age. These would grow into the cursed treaure hordes of Beowulf and the Volsung saga.

So, no, there really is no Nordic Satan... no boogeyman. Loki would come the closest, and Fenriswulf might come even closer still... as he exists merely to consume for his own selfish ends. Both could easily be called evil, but in the end, it mattered much less what a things "inherent character" was (how is that determined anyway???), and more how their actions effected society.

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