Martial Supremacy

hoi again!

how's that work ?

one of my friend rolled a combat-oriented char, and the UPB isn't very clear about this entry.
the UPB says, roll a rank for the Martial Art talent... why ? no other text mention this...

and later says, the martial supremacy do rank number damage to non-sentient targets.
one row lower it says, the char with Good Supremacy need to roll Red FEAT to shatter concrete or bullet-proof glass.

so what's the mechanism for that ?

my friend's char has the Natural Weaponry - Claws at Incredible rank (both for material strength and damage), has this power at Incredible, too, and the Martial Arts J talent. his Strength is Good.

what damage will he cause to a living opponent and a non-living target ?
can he use his power to shatter an enemy's armor or weapon?
what Material Strength may he chop through ?

i'm confused ::!o

see i normally use it as a power in it's own right. think Iron Fist with the glowing hand and all or Karate Kid being able to take out Superboy.

the way i work it, the power allows the character to do up to power rank damaging attacks.

"No where to hide. No place to run. Your village will BURN like the heart of the SUN!" - Richard, Head warlock of the Brotherhood of Darkness, Lord of the 13 Hells, Master of the Bones, Emperor of the Black, Lord of the Undead, Lord of the Dance.

this isn't really answers my questions... :(

any other idea ?

I don't think any talents require rolling ranks for them and that was an error that crept into the UPB for some reason, since talents only provide CS adjustments to existing abilities or powers or grant something you don't otherwise have (like Mystic Origin to be able to learn magic or Heir to Fortune to have an easy cover for why you're rich).

Martial Arts Supremacy is more of an UPB revamp of Ultimate Skill from the Advanced Player's Book (or so it appears to me), only instead of giving you a set 'You do everything related to this talent at Unearthly level' you do it with Power Rank improvements based on the MAS power rank and more features than US provided. Note that MAS lets you choose to specialize in something other than just a martial art talent and may specialize in a weapon instead.

The reference to doing rank-level damage to non-living objects is meant to emulate things like Martial Arts stunts to break objects, which means you check the power rank of the attack against the Material Strength of the object (in the given example you're doing Good breaking against an Excellent MS material, so require a red feat to break it).

While I haven't experience with any of the optional Martial Arts added to the game given that the MAS and Claws are both the same rank when it comes to trying to get through non-living objects you're left with the choice between the character trying to make the same Red feat, either for the Incredible rank claws to cut away the material that's too thick to claw an opponent through (like Wolverine would have to do) or shatter it with an Incredible rank assault from a punch/strike using MAS. I'm not sure of the upper rank to set for what the claws could get through, although they likely couldn't cut through anything higher than Incredible strength, whereas the MAS could attempt to shatter up to Amazing material strength on a red feat, Incredible on a yellow, and Green for lower ranks.

Damage to a living opponent from the MAS isn't applicable due to the Martial art chosen (I don't see anything in Martial Art J that'd imply he could fight for greater damage) although It's possible he might do up a power stunt in order to increase his damage to Power rank against living targets by finding some way to use his surroundings to inflict greater damage. As I read that talent though he'd more likely power stunt say Danger Sense at Power Rank as he raises his awareness of his surroundings to that kind of sensitivity, with a limitation on the range of the Danger Sense limited by the Power Rank of MAS (since it normally doesn't have a range column pick the one with the shortest ranges, probably Column A, with a minimum range of one area).

You might consider checking out Karnak of the Inhumans as well as my creation Stealth ( [www.classicmarvel.com] ) for examples of characters listed with Martial Arts Supremacy and applications of it. Power stunts would be based on the Martial Art(s) the character has, to give an idea where he's specialized as not all MAS would allow for increased damage or battle-ship breaking strikes.

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Oh good, there's already a topic close to the top for this poorly written power!

I'm in the process of starting up a MSH campaign, and one of my players has decided to make a brick. I'm using the point-buy system shown elsewhere on the site, mostly because I abhor the random rolls that the system espouses for character creation. He's picked up this power, and we're trying to find a way to make it fit.

Having read through Ultimate Skill, I'd definitely agree that's the theme that Martial Supremacy is trying to play jazz upon. It seems like a waste of a power, though; I mean, why not just buy up your Fighting and pick the Talent (which costs 10+F) instead of buying the Power, increase it to whatever Rank you want, and still have to spend some amount on Fighting (which costs 10+R+F).

I'm thinking about having Martial Supremacy act as a Fighting debuff. You still use your Fighting, but your opponent's Fighting is reduced by your Martial Supremacy. If two people have Martial Supremacy, then the lower of the two is reduced to 0, and the higher of the two is reduced by the same amount. That way, the Batman/Lady Shiva or Iron Fist/Shang-Chi fights are on a more level playing field. This gives the Power a reason to be bought!

Your thoughts?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/01/2008 09:19PM by Misroi.

Hmmmm, a bit hard to wrap my mind around seen that way, and well Martial Arts Supremacy has some benefits that Ultimate Skill didn't have and that simply raising your Fighting and getting a particular Martial Arts talent won't give you. One example is the ability to do those super-damaging attacks that can destroy at a level a standard strike can't.

There's also the possibility of developing power stunts with the Martial Supremacy that relate to the particular talent the character specializes in you generally can't do just with the basic Fighting rank and talent.

The only serious problems come in when you have to decide how the power rank for Martial Supremacy works; which depending on the interpretation would let you add the power rank to Fighting (or Agility depending on the talent) for MAS when making use of that particular martial arts talent or be considered as a separate ranking related to that talent (which would have to require it to exceed Fighting to make sense). For those Martial Arts Talents that don't give benefits for fighting (Like Martial Arts A just letting you stun and slam without the problems coming from comparing strength or endurance) you could still develop Power Stunts related to the concept for that Martial Arts.

It helps checking out the other characters shown with MAS for examples or guidelines and tweaking from there. While they do vary in interpretation it does at least give some help seeing how the game writers saw things.

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For Breaking a stationary object (such as a Brick on a table) Your Character is simply going to make contact without effort... So the only thing he needs to FEAT roll is mustering up the Speed and Power he needs to shatter that object.... (The Brick... And maybe the table too.... Or a Wall, or Whatever)......

Your Character won’t be able to Collapse an Energy or Force Barrier unless it is RM:30 or Weaker. He has to Collapse an Energy Barrier in a single hit that simply overpowers the Energy Barrier.... And the Barrier may automatically reactivate in the next Round....

In Hand to Hand ‘Fighting’ these ‘POWERFUL’ strikes are not nearly as effective... Making simple contact is more the focus of the FEAT roll, rather than the Brute Power..... So your Character’s ‘Punch’ power is reduced... And he hits with less than his ‘Average’ Damage.....

Assuming the Character has the Following Stats: (Nearly Peak Human FASE)

+F: AM:50
+A: IN:40
+S: GD:10
+E: RM:30

Claws : IN:40 Material Blades that inflict IN:40 Damage... (Destruction is probably GD:10 or EX:20; maybe RM:30 depending upon the length, width, thickness, and Mass of his Blades)........ It doesn’t matter if the Blades are long and thin like a Samurai Sword, or short and thick like a Spiked Hammer.....

Hitting a stationary or Non Combative Object... This guy can probably put his ‘Claws’ or ‘Blades’ into AM:50 Material..... At FULL and Maximum impact...... His Blades ‘May’ get stuck in the target object with a Lower Level RED FEAT....

He FEAT Rolls on His Fighting Rank... AM:50... and uses a few points of Karma to reach a 100 Score generating FULL POWER....

His Claws strike the Object at IN:40 Speed Due to his Agility at IN:40... Maybe [+1 SC] to AM:50...
His Strength of GD:10 is also transmitted through the claws.... Rendering a little more impact force...

Either way (Agility or Strength) your Character can reach AM:50 impact at FULL Force.... With an IN:40 Weapon....

Martial Arts J simply allows him to go [+1 CS] beyond his IN:40 Damage.... And it allows him various effects such as inflicting a Stun, or Kill result with less Damage or a Lower Score...... This way he doesn’t have to Impale or Decapitate to score a ‘KILL’

Without the Claws his Fighting Rank would most likely be IN:40.... Rather than AM:50.....

For Breaking Non Combative Objects the Results would look somewhat like this:

BLUE: Fail..... He won’t even Punch... He just did the Trial Touch / Getting his ‘CHI’ ready....
WHITE: Fail. He Punches the object but miscalculated... If not for IN:40 Claws he’d break his hand...
GREEN: Success, but not much Force was transmitted.... Only RM:30 Damage... IN:40 [-1 CS]
YELLOW: Success, but only his ‘Average’ Force was transmitted.... IN:40 Damage.
RED: Success, FULL Force was transmitted.... AM:50 Damage...... Or Piercing....

He can continue to Hack though a wall or barrier up to AM:50 With each RED Fighting FEAT....

Martial Arts ‘B’ (Boxing) would allow him to strike multiple times in a Single Round.... Up to 5 Times based on AM:50 Fighting (Drop the Zero)..... Allowing him to ‘Dig’ or ‘Burrow’ through AM:50 Material Walls in 1 Game Round..... Removing 50 Points of AM:50 Mass per Round.....

Based from GD:10 Destruction Times 5 hits to equal AM:50....




In Fighting another Character your Contact Skill is more important than Contact Power.... Thus, your impact Damage is reduced from your ‘Average’ IN:40 Damage to a measly RM:30 Damage.....

The Results would look somewhat like this:

BLUE: Fail. You Punched / Enemy defended with little effort / You’re open to his attack...
WHITE: Fail. You Punched / Enemy defended with little effort / You both need Initiative Rolls.
GREEN: Success, You’ll Hit your Enemy at RM:30 Impact.. And won’t inflict a ‘Stun’
YELLOW: Success, You’ll Hit your Enemy at RM:30 Impact. ‘STUN’ is actually the focus of the Score.
RED: Success, You’ll Hit your Enemy at RM:30... The Fatal “KILL” is the focus of the Score.
100 RED : Success, You’ll Hit your Enemy at IN:40... The Fatal “KILL” is the focus of the Score.

Fighting ‘Armored’ Characters will be difficult to injure... Figuring EX:20 Armor will reduce your Attack Power by 20 Points.... Only to deliver 10 Points of HP Damage.... Which probably will not Pierce the Armor..... Effectively making your Blade Attack into a Blunt Attack.....



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Well, let's see, the first character I could find that had MAS was Karnak. (Makes sense, he's the guy I think this power was written for.) He's listed as being able to do Amazing damage when using unarmed Martial Arts. So that says to me that it can replace your Strength when you hit someone.

I think they wanted it to represent someone who wasn't necessarily strong, but whose punches and kicks were devastatingly powerful. It's still not a very good power, which is why I like giving it the debuff ability I mentioned earlier.

Except the power's all about how well trained you are, having it generate some kind of penalty to how an opponent fights makes little sense to me. The only reason it makes sense for Taskmaster is his ability to predict and know what an opponent he's extensively studied in the past is going to do. MAS is all about having mastery of a particular fighting style or styles beyond that of conventional fighters with similar training.

Karnak's the poster child of MAS without a doubt, although he does get a few extra quirks courtesy of his Inhuman heritage. Karate Kid's probably even closer as he's considered totally human yet able to fight some vastly powerful DC heroes and villains without going down. Most other martial artists tend to be at the conventional level even though they likely should have some measure of MAS. Shang-Chi for example is listed as having 'Chi' but it's so poorly defined and developed they note he so far just uses it to snatch knives out of the air; just not good enough for someone touted as one of the greatest Martial Artists in the Marvel Universe. Iron Fist has similar problems when it comes to lack of development even though he's supposed to be a powerful and skilled martial artist.

Don't neglect looking for anyone who has posted characters that have MAS as they can likely give some hints and examples of possible uses for the power. I've a write-up for a powerful martial artist from the Gold Digger universe in the Let's Talk Stats section and another custom character in the Your Favorites section and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

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Hrm, I don't mean to be lazy, but could you offer a link or a name for your characters with MAS? That might help me figure out how to really get to the meat of this power.

As to my thoughts on the debuff, part of this comes from a system that gives little ability to the player to avoid attack. Though Spidey might be one of the most nimble characters in the MU, and he's shown in comics as avoiding all sorts of attacks, unless a players wants to do nothing this round but dodge, there's little he can do to not get hit besides hope the GM rolls bad. I wanted MAS to be something that can show how Batman can fight ten or twelve goons at once without breaking a sweat but someone like Deathstroke or Shiva really causes a long involved fight, for both participants. The debuff accomplishes this, since Batsy's MAS would reduce the thugs' Fighting down to Shift 0, while he'd be able to beat the crap on them with his tremendous Fighting skill. Sure, one or two might get a lucky hit in, but the chances are small that they'll do anything to him. In comic pacing, these fights would take two or three panels.

Not so when they go up against someone who is a martial arts master themselves. Those battles can last pages, if not an entire book! In that case, the reason their Fighting is reduced is to emulate how much longer this dance would be between two masters. So, if Stealth Soldier has a MAS of Good (10), and Ninjaboy had a MAS of Excellent (16), their epic battle gives Ninjaboy a slight edge, putting his MAS at Typical, and reducing SS's Fighting by only 6. Does that help explain what I was thinking when I brought this up? :)

Also, rereading the power, it could simply have been that you add the MAS to your Fighting, and that's the new Fighting total when you're using your Martial Art. Not terribly cost effective at creation, and it gets worse if you're trying to improve your MAS during play, since increasing a Power costs double that what it would take to increase an Ability.

Well Stealth ( [www.classicmarvel.com] ) is one of my characters that has MAS, and [www.classicmarvel.com] presents the stats I did for a very powerful martial artist from the Gold Digger comics, her mother Julia Diggers. Not an easy character to model and I'll probably have to have another go at her someday now that so much new stuff has come out featuring her.

I agree that the cost for MAS is expensive compared to simply increasing ones fighting rank, but again it gives you access to power stunts and basic powers just Fighting and talents don't make available. Plus unless the GM isn't enforcing the 'only one rank increase without extremely good justification' rule you can't raise your Fighting more than one rank from what it started at (assuming given the topic of discussion that the character's already starting with an Excellent or better Fighting) and the talent in general only gives a since CS bonus to certain fighting options, with the MAS you get to increase that by a power rank, which can also be increased by a rank from where it started.

For a character that started with say Remarkable Fighting and Excellent MAS in a talent that gave you better fighting skill in general in combat you get to enjoy Amazing Fighting at start instead of just Incredible due to that starting 1CS the talent gives. Raise both a rank over time to Incredible and Remarkable respectively and you're now making all your Fighting checks on the Monstrous column and can do MAS power rank damage to inanimate objects and attempt to do some exceptional damage to living objects as well.

When trying to use it for something specialized, like Swordsmanship, you have to tweak it of course, and come up with possible power stunts to reflect that MAS-Swordsmanship talent. I haven't posted any characters with that particular specialization but have considered it, just haven't gone that route yet lately with my offerings and creations. Still as a power it allows for things beyond what a normal human (or alien) can achieve in the same kind of combat art.

Well in the end it's not about what's cost-effective it's what creates a balanced and enjoyable character for the player and if it works that's the important thing. If it can be made to work and player and GM are happy then it has done its job.

"A shared universe, like any fictional construct, hinges on suspension of disbelief. When continuity is tossed away, it tatters the construct. Undermines it."

-- Peter David

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Nightmask gets 50 big bonus points for correctly identifying Karate Kid of the Legion of Super-Heroes as the inspiration for this power.
As longtime readers may remember, the UPB was originally conceived as a Legion character generator.

The way I saw it, you had to have some special edge if you as a relatively normal human are going to take down a Kryptonian. No amount of coaching by Pat Norita is going to get you there.

Of course, once I got the call to convert my idle time project into a Marvel product, the power now officially used Karnak of the Inhumans as its poster child.

Hmm... outa curiousity, when someone is role-playing Karnak in a game, do you maintain an ongoing explanation of every move you're making, like you're showing off for an idiot with attention deficit disorder?

Of course, if you're accurately recreating behavior patterns of Marvel characters as shown on the printed page, you'd probably have to do that for just about every character, only with varying degrees of pomposity.