Transformers handbook

Does anyone out there have a copy of the Transformers Handbook with their write-ups? My buddy John needs a copy. Ty States has some on his site but John needs a full copy (to include Megatron's stats as well). Anyone? Anyone?

Try Ben Reilly's site... I believe he has lots of Transformer writeups, in the Media section of his site..

Quack, damn you...

Firebomb's Technohol 13 has a lot of Transformers but I don't remember which version they are based on.

Thanks, guys!

Remaining Momboto, as usual.

---------------------------------------------
Sic Biscuitus Disentegrat.

Just be careful... half the stats you find list obscenely overpowered stats for them.

Example: This is the FASERIP for Optimus Prime according to one site.

F) Un100
<p>A) In40
<p>S) Un100
<p>E) Un100
<p>R) Un100
<p>I) Un100
<p>P) Un100

Sheesh, I wasn't aware he was a diety.





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/04/2007 10:36PM by Punstarr.

Well to be fair, based on what Optimus Prime did in the cartoon, those stats are pretty reflective of what he's pulled off. The movie version though doesn't seem nearly as tough.

And if you haven't yet, go see that movie.

I dont know I have all of season one on DVD and unearthly seems a bit high in all his stats. I can see strength but no way agility, fighting, certainly not RIP.

There's also the power bar meter that came with the toys, and the only thing OP sucked on was speed. Though yeah, agility and fighting would be hampered by that.

Well on my site, I modeled the statistics based on a) what I saw on the RID cartoon, and b) how he compared based on the tech specs of everything he fought, and c) using a handy conversion tool a friend of mine made a good long time back.

I stand by the Transformers write-ups I have made, despite your condescending attitude (both here and in other posts about this), because I've spend a considerable amount of time researching each one.

If you disagree that's fine - but there's no need to be a @#$%& about it.

Firebomb Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Well on my site, I modeled the statistics based on
> a) what I saw on the RID cartoon, and b) how he
> compared based on the tech specs of everything he
> fought, and c) using a handy conversion tool a
> friend of mine made a good long time back.

I just watched clips from the old Transformers cartoon, and I saw nothing in them that indicated Unearthly Fighting, Strength, Reason, Intuition or Psyche. Nothing. I think people have a hard time grasping the scope of Unearthly rank in any of those.

-Unearthly Fighting means he's many times more skilled a hand to hand fighter than the most skilled human being could ever hope to achieve. Sorry, but I don't see it for Prime.

-Unearthly Strength? That one's the most likely to possibly hold any water in my opinion, but as a robot, I don't think Prime is quite large enough to warrant Strength that high.

-Unearthly Reason? Come on, man... you honestly think Optimus Prime is 2 column shifts higher in Reason than the likes of Dr. Doom and Reed Richards? You think he's smarter than Thanos? There's been absolutely no evidence that I've seen to indicate this to be true, and this is the one that I have the most problem with.

-Unearthly Intuition? I saw him get ambushed and surprised on numerous occasions. I suppose you could cite Unearthly ranked sensors, but not even Iron Man's sensors operate at that level. You'd have to convince me about the Unearthly Reason first.

-Unearthly Psyche? Well first off, he's a robot, despite being sentient, so he'd be immune to most things that require a Psyche roll anyway. As far as willpower and perseverance, he's shown himself to operate solidly at Amazing rank (Doctor Doom's Psyche, btw... see Emperor Doom to see why Amazing is more than sufficient).

>
> I stand by the Transformers write-ups I have made,
> despite your condescending attitude (both here and
> in other posts about this), because I've spend a
> considerable amount of time researching each one.
>
> If you disagree that's fine - but there's no need
> to be a @#$%& about it.

If you feel I've been that way, I apologize, but in no way, shape or form have I intended such to come across in that manner. I wasn't even referring to your site, dude... I was speaking about several sites. I'm sorry, but the stats listed just seem more than ridiculous to me... converting the Transformers to the MSH system means you're comparing them to the characters in Marvel, and when you look at character comparisons as well as just pure conversion tools (which don't always work well), the overestimations of those character's stats seem very apparent to me.

In closing, I'm sorry if you were offended. Such was not my intent.





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/08/2007 09:42PM by Punstarr.

Well, if I read too much into the specific wording, I in turn apologize as well. I try not to be particularly combative or anything but something there just set me off... heh.

But, in the spirit of reasonable communication, I'll attempt to debate properly (I can do that when not ranting... heh).

As for most of his inflated stats, I can easily attribute most - if not all - of such to the power of the Matrix. In various movies/comics/cartoons it's depicted that the Primes are given a considerable 'pick me up' when the Matrix chooses them.

The most glaring example there is when in the (original) transformers movie, Hot Rod gets the treatment and becomes a veritable juggernaut - changing from a simple 'bot to, well, someone that can trounce Galvatron hand-to-hand.

For reference, my G1 Hotrod - the only actual 'classic' Transformer on my site:

[www.technohol.com]

As he was depicted in the end of the Transformers movie, I'd say he was boosted several CS all around (though I haven't tried my hand at ol' Rodimus yet, so it's hard to say for sure).

As for specific statistics that I found on some site (the one I think you used)... I can try to rationalize them (though I did not write those myself, mind):

(again for reference)

[www.angelfire.com]

* Unearthly Fighting

Just using my handy Judge's book as a guide, this is 'super human with intensive training', the likes of Thor or Hercules.

Being a big alien super robot with millions of years of combat experience (not counting the time he was on 'ice' as it were), and further augmented by the knowledge of the Matrix, I can buy this.

* Incredible Agility

Not really prepared to argue for this one way or the other. Could be better, could be worse.

* Unearthly Strength

Personally, I tend to low-ball Transformer strength scores because their immense sizes can enhance their damage to make up the difference - like in the UBP growth rules. I've been trying to devise my own growth system to cover that and it seems to work, but I imagine most folks don't use such, so ... well I try to cover all the rules. I'd give him Monstrous (but then only 'cause Brawl is supposed to be physically stronger, despite his smaller stature).

* Unearthly Endurance

'Never Tires', according to the Judge's book. This may disqualify an Unearthly endurance score, but it depends - being a robot it's not like he makes fatigue poisons, but he could always eventually run out of Energon in a fight (but so could a hero with unearthly endurance and no life support, so there's that). I tend to lean on 'matrix augmentation' here but this is one that could also easily slide down by 1 CS if you don't buy that.

* Unearthly Reason

Optimus was very smart before he was given the Matrix, and the thing has granted him 'untold wisdom' and so forth. Of course you don't see this in the series pre-movie at all, so makes metering his intellect somewhat tricksy. You see it more with Rodimus in the third season of course, but this is something more inclined to be seen in the comics.

I'd go with this one as is simply because of said matrix, along with his truly excessive life span to date (millions of years to pick things up, experience the World's good and ills, etc...).

* Unearthly Intuition

This one, it's tricky. in the comics, Prime would have Visions of things that were going to cause horrible havoc intermittently - and this after he was separated from the Matrix for awhile, though this was definitely something he picked up from it. It may be easier to call this 'precognition', or easier still to lower this to Amazing.

But if you stick with the 'matrix excuse' you COULD justify this one. Though this is the one statistic that I'd have to say (on the G1 Prime) one could easily lower.

* Unearthly Psyche

This one I definitely would give the 'matrix excuse', since it's a quasi-mystical device amping his mind and spirit - on top of his already nigh-unbendable will; even without the Matrix in him, Prime just don't know when to quit (mostly as seen in the Return of Optimus Prime - when he had to take down a kooky-insane Rodimus).

He's just got that overwhelming charisma and leadership ability to inspire others, sort of like Captain America (but with robots, for the most part, and not people... heh), so much so that even Decepticons can't help but respect his drive and convictions (despite trying to scrap him).

Now I do invoke the Matrix Excuse here and there, but admittedly that site explains that it is that device that gives Optimus the stats listed there (on the link in his equipments stuff). But I can rationalize most of what he's got as a decent depiction - but again, I see room for improvement on the base, I do admit.

I guess my biggest beef would be that he didn't cover Prime's nifty-keen Energy Axe Hand Attachment Thingie. Heh.

But, one good way to compare would be to pick up that Transformers / Avengers abomination that seems to have started coming out last week - should be a good way to see if the 'heavy' Transformers stats are justified (or at the least a glimmer of hope that Iron Man gets stomped into a fine paste for amusement's sake...).

Firebomb Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Well, if I read too much into the specific
> wording, I in turn apologize as well. I try not
> to be particularly combative or anything but
> something there just set me off... heh.

No worries. Again, if I said anything rude, I apologize. Civility is very important to me on any forum.

>
> But, in the spirit of reasonable communication,
> I'll attempt to debate properly (I can do that
> when not ranting... heh).

Fair enough.

>
> As for most of his inflated stats, I can easily
> attribute most - if not all - of such to the power
> of the Matrix. In various movies/comics/cartoons
> it's depicted that the Primes are given a
> considerable 'pick me up' when the Matrix chooses
> them.

Curious... was this something that was written in only in the later cartoons? I grew up with the original series, and I didn't watch any of the newer cartoons... I don't recall the Matrix as a plot device in the original series (which I'm basing most of my opinion on).

>
> The most glaring example there is when in the
> (original) transformers movie, Hot Rod gets the
> treatment and becomes a veritable juggernaut -
> changing from a simple 'bot to, well, someone that
> can trounce Galvatron hand-to-hand.

I never saw the movie... just the regular episodes.

>
> For reference, my G1 Hotrod - the only actual
> 'classic' Transformer on my site:
>
> [www.technohol.com]
>
> As he was depicted in the end of the Transformers
> movie, I'd say he was boosted several CS all
> around (though I haven't tried my hand at ol'
> Rodimus yet, so it's hard to say for sure).

See those are much more reasonable stats for a robot imho... I even like how you made his Strength an aspect of his Growth. I still think Unearthly Psyche is a bit much for him. I'd make his Psyche Incredible, personally (to represent his bravery... since as a robot he's already immune to psionics).

>
> As for specific statistics that I found on some
> site (the one I think you used)... I can try to
> rationalize them (though I did not write those
> myself, mind):
>
> (again for reference)
>
> [www.angelfire.com]
> prime.html
>
> * Unearthly Fighting
>
> Just using my handy Judge's book as a guide, this
> is 'super human with intensive training', the
> likes of Thor or Hercules.
>
> Being a big alien super robot with millions of
> years of combat experience (not counting the time
> he was on 'ice' as it were), and further augmented
> by the knowledge of the Matrix, I can buy this.

Wait... Optimus Prime is millions of years old? ::!o I so do not remember -that-. Millions? Are you sure? If that's true, then I suppose Unearthly Fighting is justified, though after so long you'd think ennui would have set in. Does it even talk about how hard it is for a being to be -that- old? As in "why hasn't his very existence become pure misery"? The Elders of the Universe had to become obsessive in their given "hobbies" in order to maintain sanity after living that long.

>
> * Incredible Agility
>
> Not really prepared to argue for this one way or
> the other. Could be better, could be worse.

Well I didn't argue this one initially, but Incredible does seem high for him, considering how clunky, slow and awkward he moved in the original series.

>
> * Unearthly Strength
>
> Personally, I tend to low-ball Transformer
> strength scores because their immense sizes can
> enhance their damage to make up the difference -
> like in the UBP growth rules. I've been trying to
> devise my own growth system to cover that and it
> seems to work, but I imagine most folks don't use
> such, so ... well I try to cover all the rules.
> I'd give him Monstrous (but then only 'cause Brawl
> is supposed to be physically stronger, despite his
> smaller stature).

Would the UPB Growth rules allow for Unearthly Strength? He's only like 20 feet tall, right? This one I'm the least concerned about.

>
> * Unearthly Endurance
>
> 'Never Tires', according to the Judge's book.
> This may disqualify an Unearthly endurance score,
> but it depends - being a robot it's not like he
> makes fatigue poisons, but he could always
> eventually run out of Energon in a fight (but so
> could a hero with unearthly endurance and no life
> support, so there's that). I tend to lean on
> 'matrix augmentation' here but this is one that
> could also easily slide down by 1 CS if you don't
> buy that.

I have no issues with his Endurance being Unearthly. Most big 'ol robots in Marvel have their's at UN after all. They only really "tire" when they're low on energy, and it helps to explain all the extra hit points from their big robotic bodies.

>
> * Unearthly Reason
>
> Optimus was very smart before he was given the
> Matrix, and the thing has granted him 'untold
> wisdom' and so forth. Of course you don't see
> this in the series pre-movie at all, so makes
> metering his intellect somewhat tricksy. You see
> it more with Rodimus in the third season of
> course, but this is something more inclined to be
> seen in the comics.
>
> I'd go with this one as is simply because of said
> matrix, along with his truly excessive life span
> to date (millions of years to pick things up,
> experience the World's good and ills, etc...).

My only thing with that is this... compare him to Doctor Doom, Reed Richards and Thanos of Titan. Think hard and be honest with yourself. Is Optimus Prime really smarter than any of those characters?

>
> * Unearthly Intuition
>
> This one, it's tricky. in the comics, Prime would
> have Visions of things that were going to cause
> horrible havoc intermittently - and this after he
> was separated from the Matrix for awhile, though
> this was definitely something he picked up from
> it. It may be easier to call this 'precognition',
> or easier still to lower this to Amazing.
>
> But if you stick with the 'matrix excuse' you
> COULD justify this one. Though this is the one
> statistic that I'd have to say (on the G1 Prime)
> one could easily lower.

See if you're setting his Intuition at UN because of the precognition stuff, it's an easy fix. Give him the power, then adjust his Intuition... if he actually had Unearthly intuition (a rank that I can't think of anyone in the game having aside from the Watcher himself), he'd never get caught off guard or get ambushed. Even Doctor Strange, enhanced with the Eye of Agamotto only has it at Monstrous. Personally, I'd give him Unearthly Precognition and Remarkable or Incredible Intuition (for which Amazing Sensors could be substituted in certain situations).

>
> * Unearthly Psyche
>
> This one I definitely would give the 'matrix
> excuse', since it's a quasi-mystical device amping
> his mind and spirit - on top of his already
> nigh-unbendable will; even without the Matrix in
> him, Prime just don't know when to quit (mostly as
> seen in the Return of Optimus Prime - when he had
> to take down a kooky-insane Rodimus).
>
> He's just got that overwhelming charisma and
> leadership ability to inspire others, sort of like
> Captain America (but with robots, for the most
> part, and not people... heh), so much so that even
> Decepticons can't help but respect his drive and
> convictions (despite trying to scrap him).

Well what do you think his unenhanced Psyche would be? What does the Matrix give as a CS bonus?

>
> Now I do invoke the Matrix Excuse here and there,
> but admittedly that site explains that it is that
> device that gives Optimus the stats listed there
> (on the link in his equipments stuff). But I can
> rationalize most of what he's got as a decent
> depiction - but again, I see room for improvement
> on the base, I do admit.
>
> I guess my biggest beef would be that he didn't
> cover Prime's nifty-keen Energy Axe Hand
> Attachment Thingie. Heh.

I'm just glad that most people seem content to pretend Beast Wars never happened. Can you imagine if the movie was made with Prime as a freaking gorilla?

>
> But, one good way to compare would be to pick up
> that Transformers / Avengers abomination that
> seems to have started coming out last week -
> should be a good way to see if the 'heavy'
> Transformers stats are justified (or at the least
> a glimmer of hope that Iron Man gets stomped into
> a fine paste for amusement's sake...).

Actually that's not a bad idea. I suspect we'll see one of three things depending on the writer... either the Transformers will prove to be roughly equal to the Avengers, the Transformers will prove weaker (if the writer decides that "they're just robots after all"), or the Transformers will prove to be god awfully powerful and the Avengers couldn't stop the Decepticons without the help of the Autobots. Personally, I am praying it's the first option. Either of the other ones would end up favoring one or the other and are sure to offend certain fans. Remember the X-Men vs Star Trek comics? They were rather one sided in the X-Men's favor. Don't get me wrong, I still enjoyed the comics, but I have to wonder if hardcore Star Trek fans enjoyed it as much as I did. They did after all make Shi'ar technology seem far in advance of Federation technology.

Oh and yes, I want to see Tony get trounced too... but I hate to say it, that DEM power over any and all technology could make him unbeatable to the Transformers. Freaking Stark. :X

You know he makes some great points. Prime may still be a bit over powered in my opinion but not by much. That matrix of leadership really does add a lot. Punstarr go watch the original movie it will give you a great idea. I can't believe you never saw it.

Even some of th episodes after the movie talk a lot more about the matrix and about primes age.

Prime wasnt always Prime though he was just some young Bot at one point and then got the matrix and become leader of the autobots. That was a season one episode. When the autobots went to the past.

Also, it does bear re-mentioning that Optimus Prime is really really old. And most of that time, he's been fighting a war with the Decepticons, all of this waaaaaaay before the Transformers crash landed on earth.

I always get torn when it comes to statting the Transformers. Sometimes the stats seem waaay over the top, but then i think about the insane stuff they pulled off when i was a kid, and then it doesn't seem unreasonable anymore.

So you can understand why I first saw all those UN ranks and went "Wha?!", right?

Hi everyone, I just discovered this site after a couple of years of forgetting my interest in the MSH game. Anyway, I saw this thread and remembered that I'd been developing my own TF Sourcebook, so I tidied it up a bit, formatted it into a pdf, and stuck it at [target2006.org]

If anybody has some constructive comments, then I'd love to hear them. Unlike the Transformers sourcebook that everybody else seems to have beenusing, I've tried to base my conversions from Tech Specs to MSH stats as much on the write-ups in the Transformers Universe profiles and explicit statements in the comic as possible, so it's rather more nuanced than other conversion methods I've seen.

I think that with Transformer stats you have to be continuity-specific. There's a huge difference between the cartoon and the comic, and my Transformers interest was always the comic, so that's what I've focused on.

Anyway, my character modelling, which I did whilst coming up with the tech-spec generation system within my handbook came up with the following primary stats for Optimus:

F Unearthly

A Amazing

S Shift Y

E Unearthly

R Amazing

I Amazing

P Unearthly

The Shift Y may look seriously overpowered, but it's actually reduced from what it should be comparing it with Prime's Transformers Universe profile. That profile states that Prime can lift 2,000 tons. As that's way out of line with other Transformers, I assumed that it was a misprint, and gave Prime the apropriate stat for being able to lift 200 tons.

Anyway, I was thinking that I would refine my sourcebook, so it's a bit more comprehensive and looks nice and then add a couple of roster books along with it. Oh and if and when it's ready, I'd be happy for the finished version to be hosted on any Classic Marvel site that wants it.

See the thing is, he may be able to lift 200 tons according to the comics, but I just plain don't see him dealing 200 damage on a punch.

I still dispute anything higher than Good or Excellent for Agility for Prime. I just can't see him performing Spider-Man/Nightcrawler-ish feats of agility and quickness. Heck, in the cartoon he was portrayed as being awkward, almost clumsy.





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/21/2007 02:56PM by Punstarr.

I think the Amazing Reason is way over the top for Prime, Excellent tops would fit for him, he's a warrior not a scientist. Also Shift X strength would be more than sufficient, since he can lift then Shift Y weight when pushing it with a red feat.

Agility is way too high too; during the one encounter with Spider-man they were all astounded by his quickness and agility which they wouldn't be if Amazing Agility were generally known among Transformers, or even Incredible for that matter.

"A shared universe, like any fictional construct, hinges on suspension of disbelief. When continuity is tossed away, it tatters the construct. Undermines it."

-- Peter David

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Punstarr Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> See the thing is, he may be able to lift 200 tons
> according to the comics, but I just plain don't
> see him dealing 200 damage on a punch.

So how would you depict the difference between the two? Bearing in mind that we're talking a very strong 35-foot robot, with all the extra force that size and weight brings to the battle, I can easily see him out-punching an angry Hulk (who goes up to Shift Z strength).

> I still dispute anything higher than Good or
> Excellent for Agility for Prime. I just can't see
> him performing Spider-Man/Nightcrawler-ish feats
> of agility and quickness. Heck, in the cartoon he
> was portrayed as being awkward, almost clumsy.

As I think I said, different continuities often produce different stats for a character. Looking over my stats for Transformers I've got a few on Amazing, partly due to frequent examples of all sorts of Transformers dodging energy beams with apparent ease. I might well downgrade a few to Incredible, or possibly Remarkable.

Oh, and as a benchmark for agility, Ravage manages to surprise Spider-Man, and is "fast and almost as agile as I [Spidey] am" in #3 of the original US Transformers comic. I take that to mean Amazing rather than Incredible agility.

Odd, I certainly don't remember Ravage or anyone else managing to surprise Spider-man, as I remember it there was the 'How did he detect I was here?' response along with 'How did he manage to dodge me?' reaction. Remarkable would be the max I'd expect for a Transformer in regards to Agility, except perhaps for the much smaller, almost human-sized ones. As far as dodging energy attacks go that's likely more a result of bonuses due to scanners rather than a naturally high agility, letting them detect and begin to dodge before the actual firing of the shot.

"A shared universe, like any fictional construct, hinges on suspension of disbelief. When continuity is tossed away, it tatters the construct. Undermines it."

-- Peter David

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Nightmask Character Sheet

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Paragon Character Sheet

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Complete list of my characters various forum URLs, over 30 to enjoy!

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Godiva Character Sheet

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Seraphim Character Sheet

[www.furaffinity.net] Art by Marvel Comic's artist Rusty Haller!

[www.furaffinity.net] Artist/writer/Creator of The Extinctioners Independent super-hero comic!

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Sappho Character Sheet

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[www.classicmarvel.com] - There is no such thing as too powerful Forum Thread