villain vs. villain

Superheroes have always seemed so willing to start fights with each other, for no good reason.

So, I was wondering, with all of the would be world conquorers and ego-maniaics that make up the supervillain community (for there are no ego-maniac superheroes, right?), why is it that they don't come into conflict more often. Like, lets say, Magneto is trying to conquor the world or
Terrax is trying to destroy it. What does, say, Dr.Doom think of of that? "Cool, I didn't really want it any way" ?!

Many of these villains are in competition of the same commodities. Sure, they have tough opposition, and so are at times inclined to team-up, but story-telling aside, don'tcha think they would come to blows more often? Or find themselves making allies of convenience with heroes more often?!

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"You just decided *all by yourselves* that you are the Earth's protectors. And that you, and *only* you, not your teammates or family, are trustworthy enough to include in the process..."

T'Challa, The New Avengers: Illuminati 1



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/30/2007 12:56PM by Powersurge.

Well you know it's because the various titles live in vacuums. Dr Doom could take over Manhattan in the same month that Magneto did in UXM, and neither would be written as though the other were happening at all.

Excellent thread powersurge and some good Questions,I would like to see more villans battle each other.They do fight for wealth power and Money.Marvel should devote a Comic for villan vs villan only Battles.sometimes certain villans threaten other villans plans and lives to.Doctor Doom opposed Thanos when he had the Infinity Gaultlet.I bet a comic like this would sell well and it might make some villans more then two Dimensional.

I'd certainly rather see that kind of comic than the present Thunderbolts.

It could also tell villain vs. hero stories, but from the reverse angle of the villain.

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"You just decided *all by yourselves* that you are the Earth's protectors. And that you, and *only* you, not your teammates or family, are trustworthy enough to include in the process..."

T'Challa, The New Avengers: Illuminati 1

Well, this was done in Super Villain Team-Up back in the 70's. They could be bickering in the background, but since they don't have their own titles, we don't see them. They should bring that book back.

TAG

Well the present thunderbolts (unlike the pre-CW) has been usurped to take unrepentent villains and give them a license to beat on and cripple unregistered superbeings at will. As it was originally it was great to finally see the answer to 'Why aren't we seeing more of these villains after being beaten time and time again just giving up and going straight?', now it's been subverted.

I've a few of those, and the villains did seem to have a problem betraying each other 'just because we're villains' and screwing their own plans in the process. A fallback to the simplistic and flawed interpretation from things like 1st Edition AD&D where everyone seemed to think that just because someone was evil he'd betray and backstab even allies because 'that's what evil guys do'.

The Red Skull and Dr. Doom had some serious conflicts like that, allied together and yet the Skull betrayed Doom before they'd even succeeded in their plans of World Domination, and got himself beaten in the end because of it.

I think even the animated Legion of Doom got along better and worked harder towards their common goals than the average Marvel villain. While evil and power-hungry they rarely betrayed each other and some were even willing to stick together after betrayal to pay back their colleagues.

That being said as was mentioned by someone else most titles function in a vacuum and we can see villains somehow conquering the same part of the world at the same time without being aware of each other (don't forget the Kang conquest in the Avengers that didn't seem to be noticed in any other Marvel title, as well as Thor's conquest during the Reigning).

Of course that goes back to the problem of continuity in general at least some of us have complained about in other threads. Admittedly some effort to decentralize stories rather than all of them in and around NYC would make the conquest stories easier by not having them packed in the same area to transparently fight over, and maintain the vacuum most titles operate in, but then the comics will devolve even more back into how they were in the 40s and 50s, lacking any continuity and every issue a stand-alone with no history to speak of.

One thing I enjoyed was in the HOUSE of M. THe fantastic Four reality where Doom took on magneto.

These two really are classic major villians and should naturally become enemies. I'd love to see a story where Latveria decides to invade Genosha.

Didn't Doom and Magneto work together in "Acts of Vengeance"?

They've also fought each other several times, including for example during one of the times Doom conquered the world. He allowed Magneto to free one Avenger to fight beside him, if he could (he picked Beast), and allowed him to win and end his planetary mind control. Check out the old Marvel Villain Team-up comics from the early 80s though if you want some serious fights, the fights between Dr. Doom and the Red Skull were impresssive.

Although Namor was most stunningly ungrateful when Dr. Doom did what Reed Richards and no one else could and freed his people from being trapped in suspended animation. His people were a lot more grateful by far, and it also had an example of a villain undercutting another villain's plans when they impeded his. In this case Warlord Krang was seeking to destroy the sleeping atlanteans if he could't conquer and if they were destroyed Doom's given word could not be kept, so he ensured the defeat of Krang until he could cure the Atlanteans.

Doom also got VERY testy and trashed a casino he was looking around in at one point, both for being decadent and because two idiots working for the casino sought to block him walking over to a roulette wheel for fear he'd use his many devices to cheat. THis of course infuriated him that they would question his honesty and honor and he trashed it all before leaving to return to his home.

Unfortunately they just don't show much sense in writing anymore, with good quality battles like they used to have. Was nice looking back though to see Hitler getting his mind trapped in that at the time powerless cosmic cube in his greed, after his partner the Red Skull kept the fact it was powerless from him. Did have a few minor errors in the issue though, like referencing Modok's name as Modok when his original name was Modoc, but overall good. Wasn't too wise of the Skull to burn out the brain of the only surviving AIM scientist who was on the project that created both Modoc and the Earth Cosmic Cube either.

Villains could fight one another for any number of reasons and many are set up so specifically point that out. The sentinels are considered bad guys in the eyes of most fans and they fight against mutants, both good and bad, all the time. Mister Sinister is trying to make the perfect mutant race so why not have him and Magneto fight it out when he come to get DNA samples.

There's loads of infighitng for power within groups like Hellfire Club. You want to work your way higher, you need to take out the people above you.

Now a comic about villains fighting would have a hero type feel and would take away from the villains a little I think. Sort of like when heroes and villains team up to stop a greater threat. Though it would be cool to see how villains would handle comics that have already been done. Say Magneto and his crew are team who encounter the Silver Surfer insted of the FF. I think the fights would be more bloody and graphic, but in the end alot of villains would step up to protect their world, its where they hide the things they steal after all. Probibly would be in WHAT_IF? comics had they not stopped making them.

What if comics did some like that, I remember one where Kraven the Hunter killed spider-man and started dressing as him to take his place. Villains going crazy and thinking they're heroes isn't the same but, it works.

That what-if? for Spider-man resulted in a version of the SRA in that reality as well, after Jameson set out to do a lot of shoddy journalist ranting about the 'evils' of superheroes when Mary Jane revealed Spider-man's identity after his death. It took years for her to fight the anti-superhuman sentiment JJJ set off with his blind zeal that even exceeded the mindless hatred of them that we've seen from Henry Peter Gyrich.

Well we have seen villains teamed up to fight when heroes weren't available, they used to be called the Thunderbolts. They might have been pretending to be heroes at the time but they were still engaged in working together to do good when heroes weren't available. I do think it would be interesting to see more villains forced to side with the angels on occasion or be the angels against their will to ensure their own survival or the survival of at least part of the earth.

Then there wouldn't be any villains left...

Yeah! Then the heroes would have no one left to fight but each other! Man, what kind of sick, twisted "What If?" world would THAT be?

...oh, wait. ::!o

Villains don't fight each other because there's usually nothing to gain from the conflict. Why should Magneto go out of his way to check Doom when Magneto knows good and well the Fantastic Four or the Avengers are more than willing to do the deed, and Magneto can just sit back and watch how it turns out? Also Magneto needn't tip his own hand when actually going out and fighting Doom, then the Fantastic Four and the X-Men can all play detective trying to figure out 'Why Would Magneto go out of his way to stop Doom'? All that would do is alert the heroes to Magneto's agenda. The smart money is let the heroes do what heroes do, and if for some reason that doesn't pan out, direct intervention can be a last resort. Since heroes tend to win, that resort doesn't need to be called upon.

Not to mention villains tend to be arrogant and assume that all other villains are beneath them and unworthy of concern.

Actually, they did do a WHAT-IF the Avengers defeated every one comic, and I mean every one. It was a plot by some time character of course to rid the world of supers.

I remember a very interesting fight between Loki and Apocalypse in a late 80's X-Factor annual. I bet I have that in a box somewhere...

How about Freedom Force? Villains acting as heroes for the governent by being villains.

If you played through the Negativre Zone trilogy, then you got to see baddies knocking each other around.

It would be amusing to see two villains who are arch rivals for what ever reason. Having the same goals or conflicting interests. "If you kill all the people, who will I feed off?" Needing the same maretial for survival or power is a obvious reason to fight.

They had two what-ifs of that, where the Scarlet Centurian deceived the original Avengers into hunting down everyone heroic, and demonstrated incredible gullability when he fed them a bill of goods how he'd reward them with what it'd take to make earth a paradise.

THe original what-if we see when the Earth-616 Avengers encountered them due to the Scarlet Centurians machinations to use them to eliminate his pawns. They won of course. The other was what-if they never encountered the earth-616 Avengers. The Hulk was eventually betrayed (hmmm, amazing how often that happens) and imprisoned, and later those left ended up battling and defeating SC, but it was a pyrric victory, as Iron Man tried to convince them to stay together but everyone disbanded due to shame and guilt over what they'd done. Sadly it was too late for their victims, who it seems were somehow permanently trapped, depowered, or perhaps even killed. However you sliced it though all the thousands (tens of thousands?) were locked away forever.