Who can defeat the Juggernaut?

The sonics probably wouldn't physically damage Marko, but they would render him unconscious and/or paralyze him. It's kind of like Professor X taking on the Hulk. Xavier couldn't physically harm the Hulk, but his mental bolts could render him unconscious. And no, the Juggernaut's body armor is no defense against such an attack, because it doesn't affect the body physically. The sonics attacked his sensory systems and perhaps his CNS.

As for fighting indoors, unless they were locked in an adamantium cage, Iron Man could take the fight outdoors at any time by blasting Juggernaut out, or using his tractor beam to levitate him outdoors.

LOL sonics are not just a sensory weapon. Infact many sonic weapons operate a freguencies that are inadible. It is teh vibrations from sonic weapons that do that damage and mess with peoples balance and stuff like that. All matter dampens sound to some degree so it is very likely that his armor would absorb the would waves. Even if the sound was "load" and was attacking the senses and not just a vibratory weapon the armor would still aborb and deflect the sound waves. Sound waves actually to reflect and refract very easily.

Also Just cause Iron man takes the fight out side that does not mean Juggs has to follow. That is called fleeing the fight, running away, Juggs wins. What if the fight was in the building were Iron man could not flee. I.e trying to stop Juggs from stealing something in the building, hostages in building, Juggs rescueing a prisoner. Running away is the the answer to that.

If we are talking about classic Juggernaut, he has a Class 3000 Force Field.

How long do you think he would last vs Galactus one or two rounds maybe.Jugs over iron man

Who said that that Nimrod's or Iron Man's sonics were strictly a sensory attack? Iron Man has access to an entire gamut of sonic attacks, using ultrasonic waves to pulverize concrete and masonry into dust, spiral wave sonic disruptors to cause excruciating pain to opponents, and sonic ramshots to blast through walls. And while you correctly point out how sound waves work in the real word, you forget that weapons in the Marvel Universe often go far beyond the bounds of currently available science. I'm no physicist, but I do remember that Nimrod's high frequency sonic beam did not appear to cause any physical damage to Juggernaut, but nevertheless paralyzed him for several minutes. Shadowcat, who wasn't hit directly with the sonic beam, commented that even she was suffering a splitting headache as a result. It stands to reason that Nimrod's sonic attack doesn't do physical damage--it just causes opponents horrendous pain. As I said, Iron Man has used similar weapons in the past. For example, he incapacitated Goliath (who had Class 100 strength far surpassing even Wonder Man at the time) using a continued barrage of tight beam, high frequency sonics.

Also, taking a battle to a more advantageous locale is NOT fleeing. It's called being SMART. Thor does it. Do you think Thor is coward, or that he "lost" the fight when he takes the fight to a more advantageous location? Only idiots like the Juggernaut resort to just pounding away at opponents regardless of the situation. That's why he's been beaten by relatively low-powered heroes, such as Spider-Man (who once tricked Juggernaut into walking into a gigantic vat of liquid cement). Stark is a resourceful fighter with many years of experience. He knows better than to just sit there and trade punches with the Juggernaut.

Bottom line: I'm not saying Iron Man would waste Juggernaut. It is possible, for example, that Marko's mystical force field could protect him from Iron Man's sonic attack (or Nimrod's for that matter). The point is that Iron Man certainly is CAPABLE of defeating the Juggernaut on any given day.

Good point Epyon maybe in a smart fight Iron Man.toe to toe jugs wins

Anyone else notice that Juggs rarely uses the force field? I think Marko is too cocky (usually with good reason) to bother with it. Also, he can't attack with it "on."

I am not totally ruleing out what you are saying with sonic attacks there just appears to be too much uncertainty as to how the sonic attack would work on Juggs. I can only apply logic and science to it, which is not always what the writers do (wish they would more).

Either way if the sonic attacks are sensory or not they SHOULD his armor should still offer him a great deal of protection. His armor would absorb or deflect the sonic wave lenth before it was able to reach is inner ear (inner air is what makes people unconcious from sonic attacks. As far as it pulzerizeing him like it can concrete well then we certainly know his armor would protect him from that.


Now looking at sonic weapons you can have two types ones that make noise and attack the senses but these wont do much damage and pulverize concrete and the likes. Then there are those that do a lot of damge but can't attack senses. You can't have both at the same time because of wavelenths. High freguency cause damage but no sound if you reduce the frequency you increase the wave length thus reduce you gain sound but lose damage.


Of course sonic weapons would still work on shadowcat. When she is phased her atoms are highly energized and spread out so that they can move through matter. However wavelegths still would affect those atoms.

"Also, taking a battle to a more advantageous locale is NOT fleeing. It's called being SMART."

You missed the point dude. Iron man can fly away to his more advantages locale. But what makes Juggs follow? If he does not follow and Iron man still leaves the area and does not come back its running. Its a matter of semantics when i say he is running but I think you get the point (or I hope)

Well, you're right that certain forms of sonic attacks affect a person's inner ear, causing loss of equilibrium and dizziness (the inner ear is what gives us our sense of balance). Iron Man, in fact, once used a form of wide angle sonics to render a bunch of SHIELD agents unconscious without hurting them, and since his attack didn't create any noise, I am guessing that particular form of attack was designed to affect the SHIELD agents' inner ears.
However, I don't think that's what Nimrod's sonic beam (which he used against Nimrod) or Iron Man's sonic disruptor (which he used against Goliath) does. I think they just generate extraordinarily high levels of sound in a focused, beam like path. Imagine if you were at a rock concert, standing next to a set of gigantic speakers, with the volume cranked up to the max. Now imagine that noise magnified a hundred-fold and directed right at your face, and you begin to get a sense of what Nimrod didto Juggernaut and what Iron Man did to Goliath. It's just pain, pure and simple--excruciating, acid in your eyeballs, knife in your brain pain, and even heavyweights like Juggernaut and Goliath are not immune to it. Both of them were left screaming.

I do agree that sonic attacks that physically damage their target would have little or no effect on Juggernaut. But sheer, ear-splitting noise?

Finally, as for taking the battle to a different locale, as I said in my prior post, there are a number of ways Iron Man can do that besides just leaving and trying to get Juggernaut to follow him. He can use his tractor beam to simply haul Juggernaut to a different location, or blast him out of the building with his repulsors. He can also just get behind the Juggernaut (which he can easily do undetected, thanks to his cloaking device), lift and hurl him out of the building. So it's actually very easy for him to forcibly change the location without "running". Now, all of these tactics would be far less effective against intelligent opponents, such as Thor or "Professor" Hulk. However, neither the Hulk nor Thor are nearly as impregnable as Juggernaut, so Iron Man has a lot more options against those gentlemen.

Fleeing to fight on your turf is smart fighting not cowardly,the goal is to win Bad guys a lot of the time have no problem killing a hero to win or make a rep.Junderway It is smart to fight in a way you can win

Epyon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Imagine if you were at a rock concert, standing
> next to a set of gigantic speakers, with the
> volume cranked up to the max. Now imagine that
> noise magnified a hundred-fold and directed right
> at your face, and you begin to get a sense of what
> Nimrod didto Juggernaut and what Iron Man did to
> Goliath. It's just pain, pure and
> simple--excruciating, acid in your eyeballs, knife
> in your brain pain, and even heavyweights like
> Juggernaut and Goliath are not immune to it.

That example you just described is exactly what I was talking about. It's all sound waves and wavelengths. Now picture that example you gave. Now if you put 2 in steal in front of the speaker and measure the sound waves on the other side of the steal you will find that the sound waves have been blocked by the steal. Armor dampens sound waves that hit it. SO armor should protect against sonic attacks. There is not reason why it would not.


>
> I do agree that sonic attacks that physically
> damage their target would have little or no effect
> on Juggernaut. But sheer, ear-splitting noise?
>

You seem to make a distincting in sound waves. As if sonic weapons are two separate things. yes, they can be used at different frequencies and wavelengths but in the end they are all just sound waves. If armor stops one it stops it all.



> Finally, as for taking the battle to a different
> locale, as I said in my prior post, there are a
> number of ways Iron Man can do that besides just
> leaving and trying to get Juggernaut to follow
> him. He can use his tractor beam to simply haul
> Juggernaut to a different location,


Can the tractor beam penatrate his shield? Also as soon as he lockes on a tractor beam Iron Mans movement is limited, and is vuldrible to an attack.


or blast him
> out of the building with his repulsors.


The repulsors with bounce off Juggs


He can
> also just get behind the Juggernaut (which he can
> easily do undetected, thanks to his cloaking
> device), lift and hurl him out of the building.

WHich means he needs to get close enough for JUGGS to smash


> So it's actually very easy for him to forcibly
> change the location without "running". Now, all
> of these tactics would be far less effective
> against intelligent opponents, such as Thor or
> "Professor" Hulk. However, neither the Hulk nor
> Thor are nearly as impregnable as Juggernaut, so
> Iron Man has a lot more options against those
> gentlemen.


Juggs may not be the smartest person in the world but he is no fool in a fight. He has been around long enough to know how to win a fight.

Galactus 1 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Fleeing to fight on your turf is smart fighting
> not cowardly,the goal is to win Bad guys a lot of
> the time have no problem killing a hero to win or
> make a rep.Junderway It is smart to fight in a way
> you can win


I never said it was cowardly. I dont bebate this in anyway. My point was simply if Iron leaves the area he does not win the fight. Fight is over unless Juggs pursues. And there is nothing to make him do that.

Mmmm, No. Body armor would provide no protection against pure sonic energy. It would provide protection against sonic impact and penetration, but does not significantly reduce noise. You could wear a suit of armor, but if you are subjected to 1,000 deciBels of sonic energy, you're still going to get your ear drums ruptured and probably die. Juggernaut is incredibly tough, of course, so his ear drums are stronger than a normal human's, but the point is, Nimrod still paralyzed the sucker with a sonic blast that is virtually identical to Iron Man's sonic disruptor. At a minimum, Juggs would be in serious pain.

Iron Man's repulsors would bounce off Juggernaut no more than a punch from the Hulk, unless Marko has his force field on.

Also, as I said in my post, Iron Man would only get close to Juggs if he had his cloak on. Meaning that Juggs wouldn't know Iron Man was there until Shell Head had already grabbed him and thrown him a couple of miles in whatever direction he chose.

Look, I know Juggs is tough, but he is (1) not a tactician; (2) is incredibly cocky and never really bothers to fight strategically; and (3) isn't the sharpest tool in the shed. In contrast, Stark is a brilliant, ruthless tactician, fights smart, and is one of the most brilliant minds in the Marvel Universe. Iron Man may not win every battle with Marko, but he will win his share. No ifs, ands or buts.

As a tiny counterpoint, let me stray from the exercise by saying there are plenty of heros who win fights by playing it smart, or being creative.
I'm pretty sure in a boxing ring, Mocking Bird isn't going to beat Juggernaut. But in combat, or trying to slow him down, capture him, whatever, she'd try to come up with something. And I don't think it would consist solely of whacking at him with those sticks she carried.
Point is, we've been proving in this thread, in a way, what those smart heros would or could do: Think.
Despite first appearences, and how it would look to "civilians," Juggernaut in not unbeatable.
Now, depends on what your definition of winning is. Killing the guy? Keeping him imprisoned? Or is it just getting rid of him so he's somebody else's problem?
Even with the (UNFAIR!) advanatage of that helmet, the guy's mind seems to be a weak point. Juggernaut can be tricked. For ammo, there's his greed, which is a weak point, too.

"My parents went to The Secret Wars Battleworld and all I got was this lousy T-Shirt..."

>Anyone with the ability to penetrate
>Juggernaut's mouth and get into his trachea
>could cut off his air supply. A gaseous
>attack that could solidify in the lungs
>could even be lethal to this overpowered
>twit.

I think everyone is thinking about pre-gem Juggernaut when he had "immeasurable" strength (as stated in official handbooks), forcefield, and no need to eat, breath or sleep. :D

I think in game stats Juggs does not have protection vs. sonic attacks especially as they work from Ironmans stat descriptions. But one of the stats of Juggs had one of his 2 helmets(?) able to protect him from sonic attacks that hurt the ears.

Ironman from a ranged position shoots off his helmet with his repulsors ( no matter how mant bulls-eyes the GM says IM needs ) then gets within the 3 area range of Juggs cloaked and starts dishing out 50 points of damage and an endurance check evry round until it's over. Ironman wins. In the game anyway. The comics it's anybodys ( or the writers ) ball game.

PS: these stat refrences come from my 90's handbooks and accesories not this site.

Epyon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Mmmm, No. Body armor would provide no protection
> against pure sonic energy. It would provide
> protection against sonic impact and penetration,
> but does not significantly reduce noise. You
> could wear a suit of armor, but if you are
> subjected to 1,000 deciBels of sonic energy,
> you're still going to get your ear drums ruptured
> and probably die.

Okay lets back up again. I have stated this twice now though you seem to just ignore the point. Sonic impact and noise are teh same thing. They are both sound waves. If you study sound waves at all you learn that his helmet should offer his at least some protection. Then he should get an endurance check to not pass out. Which should be easy for Juggs. Once again I state sound waves and load noise are the same thing.



> Iron Man's repulsors would bounce off Juggernaut
> no more than a punch from the Hulk, unless Marko
> has his force field on.
>
This is of course the other problem. What iron man are you looking at. Now I know there are 50 billion armors so you can (and tend to)merge all these armors to suit your purpose. However, unless specifically stated we really should keep out discussion to the standard armor he wears most. IF that is the cast the stats I see on this site puts his repulsors at (MN) and Juggs at unearthly armor. SO i am not seeing the repulsors or anything else doing that much.



> Also, as I said in my post, Iron Man would only
> get close to Juggs if he had his cloak on.
> Meaning that Juggs wouldn't know Iron Man was
> there until Shell Head had already grabbed him and
> thrown him a couple of miles in whatever direction
> he chose.



LOL you over simpliy things a bit. He is cloak I know so i give him that he can approach untoached. However, as soon as he touches Juggs he knows where he is. He can grab him and pound him into the ground. The throw is not a instant thing.
>
> Look, I know Juggs is tough, but he is (1) not a
> tactician; (2) is incredibly cocky and never
> really bothers to fight strategically; and (3)
> isn't the sharpest tool in the shed. In contrast,
> Stark is a brilliant, ruthless tactician, fights
> smart, and is one of the most brilliant minds in
> the Marvel Universe. Iron Man may not win every
> battle with Marko, but he will win his share. No
> ifs, ands or buts.

His listing in the Gamer's Handook has the welds ranked at MN strength.

I like this thread. Opens up a lot of discussions.

I think the Iron Man vs Juggs battle would be a good one to watch. IM would indeed have a fun time "testing" his various weapons. Due to Body Armor not officialy protecting senses blinding lights and sonics would inflict damage. I think that the scenery might be what spells the difference. Juggernaut would be able to throw things at Iron Man, like cars or rocks. Depending on range Juggs could always attempt a leap or a clapping sonic attack to get IM out of the air.

I definitly think that someone with telekinesis would be able to stop him just by lifting him so he can't walk.

The frictionless bubble is also rather amusing. I have a feeling that if he punches the ground while in it that might break the bubble. If not it would break the ground beneath the bubble causing something sharp (like bedrock) to be exposed and that would break the bubble. Still, it would keep him busy for a while till he figured that out.

I'd like to see what people come up with for weaker heroes to take him on. Maybe Aunt May has Marko's new girlfriend on the phone and says that if Marko doesn't come home right away and stop the rampage she's leaving him. LOL.

Junderway, I think it's you who doesn't understand the way sound works. Sonic impact and noise are NOT the same thing. A sonic impact is using sound waves to physically damage a target, a la Banshee or Siryn. That is totally different from just cranking up the volume of a sound generator to overwhelm a person's senses. Again, I invite you to wear whatever suit of armor you want and put your ear next to a blaring speaker at an AC/DC rock concert. Your eardrums will be pounding, dude. Check the MSH rules, which got it right: sonic attacks (sonic volume attacks, not sonic impact attacks) ignore body armor.

Given how Iron Man seems to get a new suit of armor every year these days, it's really kind of impossible to know what his "standard" suit of armor is. His SKIN armor had Unearthly rank repulsors, which he could increase to Shift X by shunting energy from all other sources. If you're going to put Iron Man in an inferior suit of armor, I will agree his repulsors probably wouldn't do more than slow Juggs down.
I don't know where you get the notion that Iron Man is defenseless or more vulnerable, etc., when using his tractor beam. What is the basis for that idea? It certainly isn't backed up by anything in the stats or the comics.
Finally, a cloaked Iron Man could blindside Juggernaut from behind. If successful (and the last time I checked, Jugg's Intuition was a mere Typical), Iron Man could toss him before he could react. Only an idiot would attack Juggernaut frontally while cloaked--what's the point of being invisible if you make yourself an easy target. I mean, are you telling me that if an invisible Iron Man attacked Juggernaut from behind and he had NO IDEA he was there, that Juggs would STILL be able to react in time to prevent Iron Man from throwing him? If Juggs were Spider Man, sure. And keep in mind, Iron Man throwing Juggernaut is not like me throwing you. Iron Man can lift (depending on your suit of armor) anywhere between 85 and 175 tons. He could throw Juggernaut as easily as you could thow a paperclip.