batman vs. captain america

Hello all,

Recentlt on another thread I asked if Thor was overrated? If Thor could beat Superman. The discussion was both enlightening and educational. Thanks for all your help. This started me thinking about another controversy that pops its head from time to time. Whether Batman or Captain America would win in an duel. I see this from two perspectives. First, although the Batman is stated identically, at least physically, as Captain America this is a misnomer. First, Captain America is listed as the "pinnacle of human perfection". But he is much more than. He is the result of drugs and technology which has created a somewhat superhuman being. Second, the Batman is the result of an inhuman drive for perfection of both mind and body. Thus, both are stated incorrectly. I have given the stats for what I think they should be. I believe the fight would be epic with the Batman coming out on top. Before anyone replies that he would only win because of his added advantage because of his weapons, that is part of being, just as Thor would hold his own or even win a fight against Superman because of Mjonlir. Have fun and let the fun start!!!!



Batman
Fighting Amazing
Agility Incredible
Strength Good (down from Excellent)
Endurance Remarkable
Reason Incredible
Intuition Incredible
Psyche Amazing

Health 130
Karma 130
Resources Monstrous
Popularity 50 as Batman / 10 as Wayne

Powers:

Stealth:Remarkable
Martial Arts Supremacy:Amazing(he is master of 26 fighting forms, thus superior to Iron Fist and equal to Karnak)


Talents

Martial Arts A,B,C,D,E, Wrestling, Acrobatics, Tumbling, Detective(+3CS), Disquise/Actor, Resist Domination, Marksman, Weaponsmaster, Weapon Specialist: Batweapons, Computers, Forensics, Psychology, Kit bashing, Pilot: Helicopters to Jet Fighters, Horsemanship, Escape Artist, Leadership, Tracking, Medicine, First-Aid, Law, Law-Enforcement, Criminology, Engineering, Biology, Chemistry, Physics, Biochemistry, Computer Engineer, Electronics, Languages: English, French, Spanish, Russian, Japanese, Mandarin, Cantonese, Filipino, Korean, Arabic, Turkish, Polish, German, Latin, Greek, Italian, Portuguese, French, Hebrew, Thai, Vietnamese



Captain America

Fighting Amazing
Agility Remarkable(down from Incredible)
Strength Remarkable
Endurance Incredible(he has shown superhuman endurance in the past)
Reason Excellent
Intuition Remarkable(down from Incrdeible)
Psyche Incredible (down from Amazing, I doubt he has stronger willpower than Spider-Man)

Health 150
Karma 90
Resources Remarkable
Popularity 100 / 6 as Steve Rogers

Powers

Regeneration: Typical


Limitation

A red strength FEAT will allow cap to lift up to 2 tons. It does no shift him into the Incredible strength range. He just isn't that strong

Talents

Weapons Specialist: Shield, All Martial Arts, Artist, Leadership, Military, Acrobatics, Tumbling

Thus

ok let me start by saying that if it was just physical. Batman would win.

Why this is because he uses his mental faculties as much as physical. He would be able to improvise implements and the like from his local environment to gain the upperhand.
The exception to this is if they were both locked up in a room.
It would be close the result I believe woould still be batman as he would work off his strengths such as Agility and RIP faculties.

The greatest testament to Batman's fighting and agility is the fact that he fights people in a cape. What a friggen hindrance. For a smart guy, that ain't a great idea. I'd have tossed the cape after the first night.

I suppose it depends on the nature of the battle-ground. In a ring, I"d give the edge to Cap. Over several blocks of inner-city environment, I'd give the edge to Batman.

I really like both of these guys, but you're right about Cap being nearly superhuman because of the super-soldier serum, and Batman being driven merely by will alone.

The fact is, Cap is not only the pinnacle of human strength, but also the pinnacle of stamina and coordiation and agility as well. And his limits are not confined by his height and weight. He is as strong as any 300 lbs super-heavy, his reflexes are as fast as a light-weights, he has a level of stamina only approached by men and woman around the 125 lb/very thin mark, and ditto his gymnastic skill ... which simply cannot be achieved by men of any substiantial size.

In contrast, Batman is physically limited by his height and weight. No matter how hard he trains reality would never let him rise to the level of an Olympic level gymnast or marathon runner, or even a decathlete. If Bats were striving for physical perfection, to be the consummate athlete, and his height and structure would allow it, he would aim for the 170 to 190 lbs weight range ... where we find most decathletes.

Anyway, I think that the longer the fight went on, then, in true human spirit, the greater Batman's chance of success.

Hey, Aunt May or Old Woman Kent?

In the comics, Batman has repeatedly demonstrated Excellent Strength, at least as most people understand it. He can lift well over 600 lbs from the ground. That said, there's really nothing to show his Agility as being the human maximum - he's extremely agile and athletic, but Nightwing is a long way ahead of him.

Cap, on the other hand, has demonstrated superhuman abilities, at least of Endurance and possibly Strength as well.

In the JLA - Avengers crossover, Cap and Batman faced off, exchanged a few blows, and agreed that they were equally matched. Batman's words were: "It's possible you could beat me, but it would take you a very long time." Cap agreed with him.

In other words, they're evenly matched, but Cap's superhuman stamina would enable him to outlast the Bat.

-Wal

Surrender? What? You think this letter on my head stands for FRANCE?

A couple of points. First, I would give Cap Incredible agility, Remarkable endurance, and Amazing psyche. I believe Cap has more sheer willpower than just about any other non-psionic character. He regularly takes down or holds his own with opponents far more powerful than he, despite the fact he has NO SUPERHUMAN powers. I also think you gave Batman far too many talents. The man is not a god. I would delete the following: Weaponsmaster, Computers, Leadership, Law, Biology, Chemistry, Physics, Biochemistry, Computer Engineer.

As for combat, I think Cap is superior in terms of strength and stamina (he doesn't tire), but Bats is probably better at tactics. I'm not sure Bats has the better weapons. Having a totally indestructible shield isn't a bad thing to have, in my book.

I imagine Cap would win in a sudden encounter, but Bats would win if he had time to plan in advance.

Cap fans are ready to point out that in part 4 of the JLA/Avengers crossover, Cap took down Prometheus -- who had some in their first enocunter thoroughly trounced Batman -- with one hit, barely breaking his stride, and cite that as proof that Cap is far & away superior to Batman. (Apparently, fighting Nazis in WW II makes you better able to concentrate and not be distracted by strobing hypnotic lights than fighting folks like Catwoman, Joker, and Riddler. Yeah, I don't buy it.) Some also point out JLA/Avengers #1, where Batman "obviously" backed down from Cap (even though, to my eyes at least, it looked like they were exactly the same, and Bats only 'surrendered' b/c he knew they could both bette ruse their energies find out what the frack was going on than in fighting one another).

Main point I keep hearing on non-company specific boards (like, say, the HERO or Mutants & Masterminds boards) is this:

* Batman is the strongest & fastest & most atheltic Bruce Wayne can ever be.
* Captain America is the strongest & fastest & most atheltic any human could ever be, due to the Super Soldier Serum [though, "realistically," this should be impossible, since being as strong as humanly possible and as agile/dexterous as humanly possible is kinda like being both perfectly cubical and perfectly spherical]. He's also apparently hot a very low-grade (like, Fb/1) healing factor, since he never ever scars.

In a one-on-one fight with no tactical advantage either way, no Shield, no Utility Belt, no concealed Batsuit gadgetry (like the 50k volt taser he's got built into it), Cap would win, but barely (and he'll be hurtin' for a while afterwards), b/c he's got just a bit more of a physical edge than Wayne.

(( Personally, I like the Bat a bit more. Not sayin' I like the Uber-Jerk borderline Paranoid Schizophrenic he's become over the past few years, and not sayin' I dislike Cap. I love 616 Cap, how he's a symbol of what America should ideally be [which is one reason I hate Ultimates Cap -- he's more a symbol of what the US Army actually was], and how America could be if Americans weren't so stupid and petty and had a good deal more common sense and courtesy/politeness. But I like Batman just a bit more for two reasons. One, I love bats, they're one of my favorite animals. Two, Wayne worked hard for about a decade to get himself into the shape he's in now, to gain all his detective and martial arts and other esoteic skills, to set up his Batcave and other gadgetry... whereas Steve Rogers was pretty much just handed his abilities via an injection [or series of injections] & Vita-Ray bath. ))


Oh, and C William Russette -- Batman's cape is made of Nomex and triple-weave Kevlar (so is largely fire- and bullet-proof), and its points are weighted for use as an offensive weapon. Which does more to show his intelligence -- he took something that normally hinders the wearer and turned it into both an effective defensive and offensive tool.

I'm giving this one to Batman. Yes i aggree Cap could last long and yes i aggree physically they are evenly matched. but when you get right down to it it's brains over brawn and Batman does have that on cap. Mind you Cap's not stupid, not by a long shot, but this is Batman his ideas and plans are able to take out the entire JLA, not one or 2 of them the whole freaking group of gods (tower of Babel) if he hadn't realised what was going on they would have lost.

I just can't see Cap being able to do something like that. Not in the moral sense but in the strategy and implementation sense. He's just not built that way.

and that's why this has to go to Batman.

"No where to hide. No place to run. Your village will BURN like the heart of the SUN!" - Richard, Head warlock of the Brotherhood of Darkness, Lord of the 13 Hells, Master of the Bones, Emperor of the Black, Lord of the Undead, Lord of the Dance.

If I recall rightly, Batman took down Taskmaster the same issue Cap took out Prometheus. And I'd put both of those wins down to the same thing. Both Taskmaster and Prometheus rely heavily on copied skills, not what they learned for themselves. In particular, Taskmaster has Captain America's moves, and Prometheus has Batman's. What they don't have, though, is the brains behind those moves. They can only do what those two characters have been observed to do, and this limits them.

Captain America has his own unique fighting style, which Prometheus would have never seen before. Batman probably has the same. The real deals - masters such as Batman and Captain America - could adapt their techniques to meet a new style. The copycats can't adapt so well, because they're relying on what's happened in the past.

This is how Deadpool was able to beat the Taskmaster, after all.

-Wal

Surrender? What? You think this letter on my head stands for FRANCE?

Bat took out Taskmaster? I don't recall seeing that; I'll need to go look again.

'Course, both instances could just be chalked uyp to "let's show these two badasses being badasses, but we don't have a lot of time, so let's just make it a half-page encounter."

Batman has better weaponry than Captain America, so in a fair match in their costumes with the given equipment, Batman would win rather easily.

Both characters are masters of combat. However in a fair fight of unarmed combat in street clothes, I believe Captain America is a bit stronger and would win by the narrowest of margins after a grueling battle.

Off topic, Batman once fought the Hulk in a cross over special and won by kicking the wind out of the Hulk.

In a single panel, about four pages from the end. He's basically shown kicking him down as part of a montage of heroes beating the crap out of villains.

-Wal

Surrender? What? You think this letter on my head stands for FRANCE?

batman does not have better weaponery than cap he just has more. people tend to forget cap has kevlar armour, and a class 3000 sheild!
The argument that batman took out the jla is in my opinion a poorly written story, But bats has been planning for decades on how he could do just that, he didn't just up and defeat them straight up. Cap in my opinion is just to strong and tough for batman withought some serious cheating on bats part. That being said bats will do anything to win but cap has fought many devious foes before. My vote goes to the better fighter cap!:)

What makes you think Cap is a discernably better fighter? In terms of feats achieved and foes faced, they're probably fairly equal, and beyond that Batman clearly has rather more training and experience.

how do you figure batman has more experience ? Or more training for that instance, Ive rarely seen batman training in the comics yet in the comics cap is constantly training. Cap also has the distinct advantage of actually fighting in a war, a real war that is a hell of an experiance. Also cap is more or less the trainer of the avengers and has been credited with raising the fighting of a lot of heroes,and he has the benefit of training with thor who with unearthly fighting clearly knows a thing or two about fighting.

Well, let's see. Bruce Wayne spent twelve years doing nothing but travel and train. He studied under the greatest martial artists of his world, including Lady Shiva, David Caine, Kuragari, and Richard Dragon.

Steve Rogers knew nothing of combat before he joined the Super-Soldier program. He therefore had, at most, a year of training with the best the US military could muster. Which isn't quite in the same league.

After training, Batman has had at least fifteen years of brutal combat on pretty much a daily basis. During this time he has fought more or less every kind of superhuman imaginable, been a main player in the biggest superhero team in the world, and cowed almost all of said team's members, taken on armies of ninjas and more or less every claimant to the title of World's Greatest Assassin/Martial Artist/General-Purpose Badass there is, and never given himself a break. He's fought on the front lines of several worldwide wars, as well as battling countless alien invaders.

After training, Captain America spent no more than three years at war (during which his opponents tended to be dangerous more for their brains than their combat skill), then got frozen. And defrosted less than ten years before the present. Since when he's been a main player in the biggest superhero team in the world, taken on armies of ninjas and various hardcore martial artists, fought on the front lines of several worldwide wars, and battled countless alien invaders.

However, Captain America achieved all this with the help of considerably greater strength and endurance. He's more of a power player; Batman is all about the skill. Which makes sense, considering how much more training Batman has.

And if you've rarely seen Batman training in the comics, you've presumably rarely read a Batman comic dealing with his personal life, rather than time on the front line. By the same token, I can only recall one issue of any comic in which I saw Captain America train; the rest of the time, he was too busy dealing with the problems of the world. Batman trains constantly. He's famous for his obsessive preparation, and that includes obsessively honing his skills.

-Wal

Surrender? What? You think this letter on my head stands for FRANCE?

I don't know what avengers and cap comics youve read if youve only seen him train once, he is constantly training in almost id guess 1\3 to 1\2 of his comics. As to cap having being thawed out for ten years I don't get that its been over 30 and I believe training with the best the milatary has to offer is much better than you think,Nick Fury And dumdum are great examples and just a sprinkling of the names you could toss around. Now arent richard dragon and lady shiva less than half batmans age? As to batman preparing it almost always involves traps or gimicks not physical training. You also mention that caps foes were more brains then brawn and it seems most of the arguments here are batman would win on brains not combat skill. Batman is old has no super soldier formula multiple injuries including a broken back. where cap is the perfect human with retarded aging maximum strength,agility and endurance and more than enough experience and ability. I just don't think batman is as good as people make him out to be, to me he is the most overated hero in comics. Bats was great when he was failable and human he has become way more than that now.

They're pretty much matched as fighters. Batman has a wider arsenal and is smarter, but we can't forget Captain America is Low level Meta human: He has enhanced agility, stamina and strenght,low level healing factor,(Genetically perfect). So he'll never get tired, and his blows will do much more damage than Batman's blows. Batman should face Black Panther (they're much more similar, and it could go either way But for the sake of debate Bat's over Black Panther.), and the Captain should face Deathstroke the Terminator (they're much more similar) vote Captain America wins.
But to the point Bat's vs Cap

1. LEADERSHIP: Even. Cap can command thousands and is the ultimate tough guy. The Avengers look to him as much as the JLA does to Bats. I would say in their respective ways it would be even.
2. FIGHTING STYLE: Equal. Both have their respective unique fighting styles and execute in a awesome fashion, Cap in a more textbook style and Bat's darker style
3. But overall both combatants know each other very well and when it's all said and done, Cap is your winner because of the enhanced endurance.

But for a final thought, both are as good as it get'sX(X(X(X(X(X(X(X(X(X(X(X(X(

Cheers :!)-D

I have read many many man Avengers and a few Captain America comics, and it's almost a cliche' that Captain America is training in every single one of them. I haven't read as many Batman or JLA, but I have read several "key" Batman comics (meaning eventual stuff happening...death of Robin, introduction of Tim Drake, Knightfall, ect.) and I think there might have been like 1 where Batman wasn't training...so I think it's safe to say that no one can say "one trains the other doesn't...thus victory for training guy."

As far as the arguement that Cap only fights weak brainy guys, I wouldn't call Joker, Riddler, or Two-face powerhouses or even anywhere near Batman's physical league.

As for leadership, as per the comics as they are right now today, Captain America is leagues and leagues above Batman. I've read so many comics where mega heroes will stand up for Cap and declare they will follow him to the death if nesessary, while it seems that the majority of the JLA are constantly at each others throats. Cap isn't a better leader because of tactics or brains. Batman is certainly better at both of those...but Cap is a team player. Batman is NOT a team player. Batman right now, prefers to lead through fear, and is almost like a stubborn general. "Follow my rules my way or ELSE!!!!" Captain America leads by example and tries to work with others strength. "That's a good idea, but is there anything else we can do to make it better?"

At any rate, in a fight where Batman can plan way ahead of time, Batman will most likely defeat Captain America. I hate that arguement because so often in comics, heroes improvise so much and sometimes the best laid plans just always go awry. However, assuming everything goes without a hitch, Batman should manage to pull off a victory (though I can't see it being easy for the above reasons of improvision on Cap's part, ect.)

Without preparing, in a straight fight, Captain America will beat Batman. NOT easily at all, but he will pull out the victory. Sometimes I think fans take offense when one character is put over another. I can't see Cap or Bats coming away from either of their victories in prestine condition. Captain America HAS fought countless foes with as many or even more gadgets than Batman. Those enemies may not be in Batman's physical league, or his sheer brains league, but enough so that Bats' gadgets are a nonfactor. I can't really recall Batman facing enemies like Cap before. A slight metahuman who manages to accomplish sooooo much with, admittably, so little.

Cap isn't a better leader because of tactics or brains.......Captain America leads by example and tries to work with others strength. -Goldenbane

Smartest thing said in this thread so far. I don't think Batman should have the Leadership skill whatsoever. When has he even been shown to lead? A problem comes up, he walks out of the shadows, gives an answer to the problem and then steps back into the shadows. He's about coming up with answers, not about leading the troops. Telling your ward what to do hardly makes you a Leader of men.

DG X(

Marvel > DC