Best hand to hand combatant, sans superpowers

In the Marvel Universe, if you removed ALL superhuman powers/attributes, weapons and equipment and went ONLY with a character's pure fighting skills, experience, and reflexes, who would be the best hand to hand combatant?

I am putting my money on Captain America, but I was curious as to what others thought.

The Foreigner.

On just a one on one fight ( like some enter the dragon tournament ) I'd give the edge to the Taskmaster.

He once held off ( and fought well ) vs. the avengers w/ Ironman and Captain america in the fight.

This is of course if he lost his photographic reflex power ( going to yellow claws island ? ) but kept his memory.

Wolverine and of course Iron Fist. Nuff Said.


"All who break bannana law must face the MONKEY!"

Thor. He's still got a millenia or so of heavy combat experience and training to rely on and he'd be in superb physical condition. However, he wouldn't fair so well if he had to fight immediately after being stripped of his asgardian powers until he adjusted to having human limitations.

Karnak.

Black Panther.

Wolverine? Wolverine's battle tactic is to jump face first onto his enemy's weapons until they run out of ammo. He'd get anniahalated. Ever see the comics where he lost his regeneration? He got seriously f'ed up.

I tend to dismiss the big guys too, they tend to have experience, but their experience is in hurling large things at each other. That doesn't carry over so well into actual fighting.

I guess I'm not sure... I mean if you completely levelled the playing field then it would come down to experience, and really ANY of the experienced hereoes could win, depending on the writer. Except wolverine, because he'd jump in to attack and get shot. :.D

This is one of those situations where who wins is determined by who writes.

I'll toss in another couple names:
Shang-Chi (A definite contender)
Elektra (Another definite contender)
Black Widow (Not a frontrunner, but she's been described as having nearly superhuman determination. She's all heart, and that counts for something.)
Shadowcat (Yeah, Kitty. She's a ninja, for Christ's sake, right? Sure she's a longshot, but still...)

Almost any of the people listed could feasibly win, depending on the writer, or upon dice rolls.

I gotta agree with Tormain that Wolverine, stripped of his powers and adamantium laced bones and claws, is not up there with the elite.

I had forgotten about the Taskmaster. It's an interesting question--David Michelinie, who created the Taskmaster, made it very clear that TM is not a mutuant--his photographic reflexes is just a very unusual talent, not a mutant superpower. With the photographic reflexes, TM would beat anyone. Without them, he's still among the elite. The Foreigner is another great pick. I guess I would put Cap, Foreigner and maybe Shang Chi up in the best of the best lot (although TM would beat them all if he had access to his photographic reflexes). Iron Fist is just a titch below, IMHO.

I gotta agree with you on that as well. So far my picks are:
The Foreigner
Taskmaster
The Shadowmaster (taught Punisher in martial arts)
Lady Shiva
King Snake
Batman

I would put Batman at #1 against anyone without superpowers, and wasn't including him because it wasn't fair to the others. He, after all, can take down most of the DC dudes when they HAVE powers.

Isn't this pretty easy to find out by looking at all their stats and removing the Powers section?

not really, because after technically super strength and agility are powers after all. But then how strong would Spider man be with his powers removed. Before he would be weak, but now he exercises for hours on end daily swinging between buildings so he would be stronger, so who can say.

Fact is it depends on what you are calling a power.

Kitty's not even a contendor. I mean, yeah, she knows Ninjitsu. Big wow. Psylocke leaves her standing for skill alone, not to mention being far more experienced than her. Hells, the way they've been shown operating, Cyclops would probably beat Kitty in unarmed combat (he's nerve-punched her before, although they've both had a lot of training since). Of course, if you gave them both knives, he wouldn't stand a chance.

Psylocke should be up there, of course. Wolverine, if he's given a month to get used to being slower, weaker, and more subject to injury.

Exactly. I mean, Thor's superhuman strength and invulnerability are natural side-effects of his being Asgardian. Do they count as powers? How about Captain America's enhanced physical abilities? He's purged the Super-Soldier Serum from his bloodstream, but he's still superhuman due to earlier influence of 'powers'.

Besides which, Cap doesn't actually have all that much skill, per se. What he has is a unique fighting style evolved primarily from Judo and boxing and based around his own superior physical abilities. Wolverine, on the other hand, has a lot of training but doesn't usually use it.

In terms of skill, at a purely human level, I would say the list within the Marvel universe included the Foreigner, Taskmaster, Shang Chi, the Cat, Psylocke, Elektra, Silver Sable, Iron Fist and Daredevil - who of course wouldn't even be in the game without powers.

-Wal

Wallace, why do you say Cap doesn't have a lot of physical skill? Cap is widely considered the greatest hand to hand combatant in the Marvel Universe. Sure, he benefits from the super solider serum, but even without it, he is formidable...

Perhaps skill was the wrong word. He doesn't have a lot of training. His combat skills rely on his physical abilities far more than someone trained primarily in conventional martial arts.

Let me put it this way: It's often said that Jeet Kune Do was the perfect martial arts system for Bruce Lee. For anyone else, it's just useful. Similarly, Cap's fighting style is effective only when combined with his strength and agility. Taking away that would be like taking away a Savate expert's legs.

-Wal

Cap has as much training as anyone and no one on the list can really top his decades of fighting experience (except wolvie). He took down Crossbones in "Streets of poison" w/out the super soldier serum. Side note...How about Gamora as a contender?

As much training as anyone? Decades of fighting experience? Starts around 1940. Has, at most, two years training. Frozen in 1945. Unfrozen less than fifteen years ago Marvel time. Total twenty years, training and experience.

The Black Widow: Born in the 1930s. Trained from childhood.

Daredevil: Became blind pre-pubescent. Met Stick shortly after. Now in his thirties. Well over thirty years, training and experience.

Wolverine: Born in the mid to late nineteenth century. Served in both World Wars. Spent most of the 1930s and 1950s training under Ogun. Minimum twenty years training and experience, before the CIA, Weapon X or the X-Men.

Iron Fist: K'unn L'unn visited Earth every ten years. Ten years initial intensive training. At least another ten years experience, before eventually fixing K'unn L'unn. Mimimum twenty years.

Shang Chi: Trained since childhood. Considered a master at age 19. Current age uncertain, but at least thirty.

-Wal