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Good analysis. You've certainly sold the dodge rule well, especially with your tweaks.
In regard to the contradictions in Spiderman's speed in comics, I think it's basically a comic writers' convention that the characters are just fast enough during any issue (or cartoon, in the case of the various television series) to make their situation just challenging enough to be int
by civet5285
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I hear what you're saying, but the fact of the matter is that the -CS mechanic doesn't take into account how much more effective a person would be a attacking and defending. The faster fighter isn't just harder to hit; he also is much harder to defend against.
This reality isn't at all covered by the Fighting Stat. Speedballs should get a greater advantage in defense, agre
by civet5285
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Okay, we're getting a little far afield.
In human terms, the faster fighter can lose to the more-skilled fighter. That's true.
In comic terms, though, Spider Man can actually dodge machine-gun fire. That's speed way above human norm.
If Spider man fought either Batman or Captain America in a ring, "put up your dooks" fashion, then I can see them being able to cou
by civet5285
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In comics terms, I would of course agree with you, which is why I posted the topic; if the Fighting stat from the game measures merely your skills (abstractly) in hand-to-hand, apart from your physical abilities, then it shouldn't change as Hulk's Strength goes up.
However, if the Fighting stat represents a more inchoate and general effectiveness, I can see the argument that the Hul
by civet5285
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I take your point, but we may be discussing two different things: the fighting skill as depicted in comics, and the Fighting STAT used the MURPG.
Hulk's fighting skills would of course have improved after WWH, that much is intuitively clear. Apart from his physical gifts, his techniques would be better. I agree with that.
His Fighting Stat would likewise improve based on the improveme
by civet5285
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This also explains the fallacy of some of the analyses being done on the Fighting stat (including my own). It makes no sense to try to analyze the Fighting stat apart from the physical abilities (i.e., what if Thor had the same strength as Captain America, who would win a fight, etc.) because it's so based on them. The Hulk has the same Fighting technique as Bruce Banner, but his effectivene
by civet5285
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That's a great point. So, Fighting as a stat represents not someone's "skill" at doing things, but rather a measure of how effective someone is at pulling things off based on their physical ability. Someone who can lift more than a thousand times their own body-weight can actually pull off some of the crazy stunts we see in comics whether or not they've every actually tr
by civet5285
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All right, granted that his present Fighting stat of Rem is reasonable given the events of WWH, why should the stat as a whole go up when he has an adrenaline surge? It makes no sense.
by civet5285
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Maybe his initial fighting is too high, come to think of it. I could see it being at Good (10), which would put him initially at:
Fighting Good
Agility Good
Strength Monstrous
Endurance Monstrous
Reason Feeble
Intuition Typical
Psyche Remarkable
Health 170
Karma 38
Resources Feeble
Popularity -10/10
It's not as if he's a great fighter. He's effective because he
by civet5285
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I just know the Hulk-philes are going to flame me for this, but...
Why does Hulk get a +CS in Fighting from his Adrenalin Surge? Fighting is the one stat that seems skill-based, and it doesn't seem as if he gets any better when he's mad in the comics. On the contrary, usually he gets worse, but his strength and hitting power go up so fast it usually doesn't make a difference.
by civet5285
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I was playing with another group, and they had a set of house rules they played with to make the fights more like some of the animated series fights the head of the group was a fan of (Justice League Unlimited, Ultimate Avengers, etc. I'm a fan myself).
To get me familiar with the rules they use, we did a "scrimmage," a la Heroclix style, where we played as two teams fighting it
by civet5285
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I neither encourage nor discourage math. If someone enjoys it, as you obviously do, then I say go to it. For those who don't, I can understand it, and can see how they prefer a simpler calculation as 1/10 the power rank every turn, or minute, or hour, or whatever. If that makes a game treat the Regen/Healing factor as too high for your taste, don't play with a group that does it; stick
by civet5285
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I have to say as a fan that Wolverine's healing factor has gone pretty overboard. I remember way in the first Wolverine limited series, expert swordsmen were actually a threat to him. One skilled unaugmented human (Shingen Harada) actually beat him up with a wooden sword, and almost killed him with a real one.
Contrast that with the "Enemy of the State" arc where Wolverine just
by civet5285
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It's true that one advantage to the 1/10 rank of health gain per turn (or per round, whichever) is a lot easier to apply.
by civet5285
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I was looking at Apocalypse, and he would seem to have TI at the Typical rank (-3CS), although it's called "Damage Reduction." He's a good example of a character who ought to have it; look at what a hard time he's given some of the heavy hitters of the X-men over the years, even though his TI is pretty modest by those standards.
It's clear that many descriptions o
by civet5285
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Why not use the power rank of Reg as the ratio to multiplier to determine how much more health is gained than 1/day? Than divide by whatever unit you want, hours, minutes or whatever? I suppose you could get down to seconds, if the value is helpful.
by civet5285
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Man, that is unbalancing, in game terms. Any degree of TI has a big potential to negate damage with the column shift rule, even lower levels. I can't help agreeing that TI, at least as it's used as we've discussed, should be so rare that it is almost never encountered in game terms. Having a high-ranked TI rating practically prevents you from taking any damage at all, and when cou
by civet5285
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Hm. You make a good point about Regeneration.
How do you use it in game turns? A character with Regeneration, rather than recovering the End rank 1/day recovers it 1/hr? or does it depend on the rank of the Regeneration?
by civet5285
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I feel as though I have to be misunderstanding the TI "column shift" method rule, and am somehow getting it wrong.
If, let's say, Doomsday (at his most powerful stats, Dam at Shift-Z) were to hit, say the Hulk, the column shift (Mon TI, -9 CS) would lead to Exc (20) damage. Is that right? Doomsday hitting Hulk would only cause 20 points of damage?
One would think that his Reg
by civet5285
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I'm talking about his base fighting skills. I can see Thor having Unearthly fighting with Mjolnir (sp?), and having even as high as Amazing (although I'd put it at Rem or Incr) at empty hand. So, yes, I agree with you that the debate in my own mind is at least partially his empty-hand vs. weapons v. weapons skills. What you say about Thor carrying a sword early, and so on, makes sense
by civet5285
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Man, you weren't kidding about flaming. I read the prior thread about this. People were going absolutely apesheet over their interpretations.
That having been said, it would make more sense to me that Hulk and Wolverine would have Regeneration instead of TI. TI would seem to conceptually represent something other than toughness and healing, the way it works. It seems almost like a force
by civet5285
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I think it's good. I can understand Punstarr talking about the Fighting stat (he and I agree to disagree about it in regard to Thor) but I find it reasonable.
I would think he'd have Edged Weapons, Wrestling, Brawling, and maybe a M.A. or two (scary thought, that he might have that, now). What about Iron Will? Would that have any effect at his power level?
Also some leadership,
by civet5285
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I still don't understand the difference between TI and regeneration. How do they work in game terms?
Also, what house rules do you guys use to differentiate them? Having the character heal 1/10 regen/End rank per turn makes a lot of sense. What do you to with TI?
by civet5285
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I would agree with Thor's skill with the hammer being Un, that makes sense. It's his innate Fighting stat I think is inflated.
by civet5285
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Well, as has been said, he wasn't the God of War, but in any event, I just base my opinion on what Thor has displayed in comics. He's never demonstrated a high level of fighting skill, and when he fights guys like the Hulk, whose fighting skills are less than half of his, he should blow him out of the water. Instead, it's always a fight.
In game terms, Thor should be comparable
by civet5285
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I guess we're talking about different things.
I grant you the MU Asgardian mythos differs from Norse.
As for fighting gained in experience, I was speaking in real life. Having a lot of fights doesn't mean you're the most skilled guys. In real fighting sports (boxing, mma, whatever) the experienced guy isn't always the most skilled; sometimes he's gotten by by being
by civet5285
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You've raised a great point, the only persuasive one I've heard in support of Thor's fighting. Unlike many other heroes, who learned to walk, talk, move and fight before they gained their power levels, Thor has had them since birth (although they were presumably lower and increased as he matured). Unlike the Hulk, for example, who probably at first couldn't even move well with
by civet5285
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Captain America rarely misses with his shield either, nor does Spider man miss with his webs. Comics are, I agree, "hollywood" in terms of the fighting displayed, but the fact remains that a fighter with skills greater than Captain America who is as strong as the Hulk should routinely smash down any of the MU powerhouses, without raising a sweat. The fact that they have to fight to win
by civet5285
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I hear what you're saying, but in the Norse legends, Thor isn't very often challenged very often, and he rarely outfought opponents. He usually was stronger and tougher, because that's the virtue he represented to the Norse. Moreover, just having experience doesn't make you skilled. A lot of experienced fighters lose to less-experienced but better skilled fighters.
Even i
by civet5285
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