New stats for Hulk and Thor

Excellent point.

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It could have been requiring him to function in the Shift X range (Reed Richards was deliberately taunting him to anger him so he'd be stronger) but you have to consider that Molecule Man dropped the mountain intact on them, so the pocket itself likely didn't require that much strength overall to maintain. Not to diminish his contribution but he wasn't operating at some godlike level of strength to pull that off and doesn't have to to be impressive.

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Either way, one of the most impressive feats of Strength in the history of Comics.

The Last Duskblade
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I believe that he'd never be able to lift that much weight in any other Marvel book. You can't quantify that in game terms.

Gotcha. I'm of the same mind frame. It is like one of those, one time things that he was able to pull off.

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True, but the 80s just into the 90s was a good time for impressive stuff that wasn't so outrageous like today. No revolving door on death where even the characters comment on how everyone seems to have the 'revolving door on Death' power.

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Some people will probably brown their under shorts about this.....

Any re-calibrations to Thor should be greatly focused on his ‘Fighting’ more so than his ‘Strength’......

THOR is a ‘Warrior’

HULK is a ‘Brute’

Basically, a Brute has NO skills and almost all actions are performed with Simple ‘Brute’ Strength. But a warrior derives his ‘Brute’ strengths through his Skill.

If I were to recalibrate Thor, I’d give the Norse God this:

F: SY:200
A: RM:35
S: AM:60
E: UN:100
R: EX:20
I: IN:40
P: UN:100

HP: 395
KP: 160

Strength Enhancement ‘Power’: Magic Belt, Bracelets, Boots increase Thor’s Strength in multiples of 3 to achieve the following levels of Strength.

+UN:120 by burning 3 Karma Points.... (Super Human Strength, meaning normal physics are in play)
+SX:180 by burning 6 Karma Points.... (God-Like Strength, meaning objects Thor touches defy gravity)
+SY:240 by burning 9 Karma Points... (God-Like Strength, meaning objects Thor touches defy gravity)

To maintain the Strength Thor has to burn an additional 3, 6, or 9 Karma every Game Round. But the after effect is less taxing on him...... As a player you can just Cash in say ‘90’ Karma and Thor will have SY:240 Strength for the next 10 Game Rounds.... (1 Minute)

With the increase of Strength, Thor’s Fighting rank also increases from SY:200 to SZ:500 and tops out at CL:1000...





Thor’s Fighting would also suffice for many other FEATS......

Throw the Hammer = Agility
Throw a basket ball sized Rock = Agility
Throw a Boulder = Fighting
Shoot a Bow = Agility
Shoot a Hand Gun = Agility
Shoot a Tank Cannon off his Shoulder = Fighting
Cast a Lighting Bolt = Fighting (and it don’t matter if the bolt is shot from the sky or the hammer)
Spin the Hammer into ‘Fan’ blade Shield = Fighting
Evoke hurricane Winds = Fighting
Left a car and hurl it at a Target in one swift action = Fighting
Rip a tree out of the ground and use it as a base ball bat = Fighting
Use one of those huge marble building pillars as a Javelin = Fighting
Use the Hammer strap to strangle some Guy = Fighting




Basically Thor uses his ‘Strength’ and ‘Agility’ combined into a single ‘Bad-Azz’ Skill....... “Fighting”......

And Thor does not need a specific ‘Discipline’ or ‘Martial Art Style’ or ‘Talent’..... Thor is a simple ‘Mean-MO-FO-Bad-Azz’ who knows how to “FIGHT”




Most Player’s see the “Fighting” Rank for ONLY hand to hand combat and Melee Weapons..... I say those 2 concepts ONLY cover about 10% of your Character’s “Fighting” Rank......

Even for a ‘Charge’ action I’d suggest “Fighting” as the FEAT roll........ Thor does not simply run in like a big dumb azz freight train......

Most likely Thor will take off in a ‘Sprint’ | take the target Character down with a ‘Tackle’ | ‘Tumble’ about with the target Character in a ‘Grapple’ | and finally end the FEAT action with an elbow smash to the Target Character’s nugget.......

The entire FEAT takes place in 1 Game Round. Covers probably 50 to 100 feet (5 to 10 Areas). And probably inflicts MN:75 to UN:100 Blunt Impact.



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Hm, very thought-provoking.

Some random thoughts:

I like how you differentiate different characters with different fighting styles. I think it's cool, and reflects the comics, where characters (at least when written well) really do not fight like one another at all, when they're distinct, I mean. I'm not sure in game terms how "Brute" translates into actual moves and attacks, but I see what you mean about the "Warrior" type of fighting.

You've certainly taken the concept of Fighting as an amalgam of the physical/mental skills package and expanded it. If a character can be deemed to have drilled and used a move over and over, it would more likely be a F feat; otherwise, perhaps a raw Agility or whatever. And some power stunts would seem to lend themselves to F rather than A, or vice-versa.

It would probably encourage players to come up with their own table of "moves" and get agreement as to what sort of Feat they represent. I like that, because I like players who try to describe actual fighting moves and power stunts in their games; it bores me when players just say "I hit the other guy" and roll dice endlessly. Of course, my group has a lot of pro wrestling and mma fans in it, so that might make it a little easier, but in any group I like when players try to actually imagine detailed moves and stunts, perhaps even describing how they would look in a comic or animated feature.

It suggests that each character would have such a list of moves, not exhaustive, that players could have pre-determined what sort of Feat to use; Captain America would have his shield maneuvers, for example, Iron Fist would have his kung-fu moves. Daredevil would have those weird acrobatic moves he does. Spiderman would have those superhumanly agile/strong moves he does. But none of them would fight like one another, which I think is key, and which I like about your analysis.

Now, I'm not "browning my shorts" over this, but I would say this-

I'm not sure I'd put Thor's F above Unearthly. Conceptually, I'm not sure what a Shift F stat means. I'd have to think about it, I guess. I'd give him a base F of Unearth, at most, and give him column shifts for his pet moves.

I'm also not keen on lowering his S that low, unless you were to scale back the other heroes accordingly. The Hulk would probably be Mon, and the Think likewise Am, in your scale, for example. Now, obviously, I'm a fan of scaling back my heroes, but it doesn't work unless everyone scales back.

Now, conceptually, what moves does a "Brute" have?

He'd lead with his chin a lot, taking shots to deliver his own, and depending on his superior S and E to get him through.

So Hulk's F would be low, maybe as low as Good or Typical?

But a lot of his moves would combine his Agility (he's actually pretty quick for a big guy) and S, a lot of crude wrestling tackles, throwing objects at opponents, getting ahold of them and slamming them into things, etc.

Hm. As I said, very thought-provoking.

I'll chew on it some more.

I don't get the Strength of Amazing. Why would you drop it to being able to lift only 50 tons when that is essentially the core stat that Thor is known for in the established comics lore? Even without the belt, that he has seldom used in comics, his strength is rated as Class 100 (routinely able to lift over 100 tons).

It also goes without saying that I disagree with yet another boost to his Fighting score which would throw his combat skills even further out of balance with what is portrayed in the stories. I am starting to wonder if maybe I am reading a different version of Thor's comic than some others on these boards, since I have have been collecting Thor and the Avengers since 1976 and only missing a few select issues here and there, and Thor has never been depicted as the ultimate, infallible fighter that some are trying to make him out to be. YES, he is a warrior , YES he is a very skilled fighter but he is NOT the ultimate fighting machine (speaking from strictly a martial skill level) in the Marvel Universe. YES, he is someone that when arriving on the scene, sends a sense of awe and fear into opponents but it is a combination of his fighting prowess (which does not have to uber in game terms to still be considered effectual and substantial) AND his immense power that invokes those feelings. One has to look at more than just a high number being assigned to his Fighting stat and actually look at the relative displays that have been portrayed in the published works to see his worth and value as a physical combatant. The fighting stat represents ones RAW skill at physical combat, and if you look at the average joe in the Marvel Universe, who would be running around with a fighting rank of Typical, or even a militarily trained combatant with a rank of Good,... for them to see someone arrive on the scene and display feats of fighting prowess of even Excellent or Remarkable, would be humbling,... feats of Incredible or Amazing would seem almost inhuman and impossible to that same individual,.... but once you get to Monstrous and Unearthly we would be talking about combat displays that the common man could not even understand or believe were happening. As yet this level of combat prowess has never been depicted coming from Thor EVER (unless maybe it happened in those few issues that I am missing, which would be an amazing coincidence). The charrcter of Thor has always been depicted as a blend of the strong fighter (strong as an extermely skilled, but not THE BEST) and a physical powerhouse rolled into one and THAT is what has always been what made him a very well balanced and great character.

So let me ask you, Herbert... do you feel Gamora is justified as having an Unearthly Fighting FEAT?

On this page, at least, Gamora's fighting is Amazing, which I think is probably sound. Un? I wouldn't think so.

She rolls on the Unearthly column base for her FEATs due to her Ultimate Skill power. Do you think this is too high for her? I don't.

Yes, that would seem appropriate as presented in the books. According to her bio and write up in the Marvel Universe handbooks she has rigorous training in the fighting styles of numerous worlds, so I would place her slighly above Captain America who has the fighting knowledge of strictly Terran based martial disciplines (which I think is acheived with the stat presented here and her higher agility gives her a slightly better chance at dodging since when training to fght you are not trained only to hit, but also to avoid being hit), but I would not put her equal with Champion who also is trained in the fighting styles of numerous worlds, but due to the fact that he is immortal the definition of numerous takes on a much larger scope. I would place their rankings as such.

Thor = Incredible (Monstous when using his hammer)
Captain America = Amazing (Unearthly when using his shield)
Gamora = Amazing (Unearthly with her Ultimate skill and Supremacy, I would put her strength at Remarkable however)
Champion = Unearthly (Shift X with matial arts talents)

I have seen Thor demonastrate plenty of figthing skill in the numerous comics I have read of him since the 80's. In fact, if one compares Thor's comicbook fighting style to the real world, his technique is FAR more practical than that of, say, Cap. One just has to look over his battles with the likes of Jormungandr for instance, or any opponent that poses a true threat to the Thunderer.

But speaking of Cap; he isn't necessarily the consumate HTH combatant that some think he is and can hardly be deemed superior to Thor, muchless Hercules (*father of pancration* according to Greek myth). For one, if his origin is any indication, Roger's lacks fundamental physical aptitude (especailly compared to the foremost *warrior* of a pantheon of *warrior* GODS) and this is the foremost quality represented by the Figthing score, while the various martial art talents reflect acquired skills/techniques.

Moreover, according to Cap's own entry in the OHotMU he is listed as being a "master" of boxing and judo. Thats it. And that makes perfect sense considering the era that Cap was born in and where the West stood in relation to Eastern martial arts.

If Cap can at all be compared to a consumate martial artist the likes of Batman, it is purely the result of his athleticism.... athleticism being the gist of what Cap has always been. An athlete with an over-sized discus.

So, if one is going to mess with the fighting stat of Thor or Herc, it would seem in order to get Cap's straight as well.

Not that any one can't tweak various stats as they see fit, but if it is going to be argued in a public forum, well, theres my tuppence worth on the matter.

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Man, very cool discussion going. I like it.

In terms of Gamora, I have no problem with her rolling on the Unearthly column because of her Martial Supremacy. I think it seems consistent. I also have no problems with Thor rolling on the Un or even Shift something when he's fighting with Mjolnir. Cap and his shield, same thing.

I do have a problem with Thor having a base Fighting stat of Un, I don't think it's warranted, assuming that Fighting (the stat) really is more like a skill that happens to add to overall health. If Fighting is in fact more the synergistic stat that encompasses all the others, I think I can see Thor & Herc having a base F stat of Unearthly.

Champion's base stat should be higher than Thor & Herc; the guy has spent centuries traveling the universe fighting and mastering different fighting styles. I can see him having a Shift F stat.

It's difficult to analyze comic books to see moves that look practical in the real world to judge their effectiveness. Comic book fights don't obey the laws of physics. Then again, neither do the heroes' abilities. No real-world life form that anyone has ever observed in human scale, can, for example, press over a thousand times his body weight. No one knows how a life form with that physical capability would move. The schlocky, "wire-fu" fighting styles from the kung fu movies might be possible to a being with that degree of physical power; we just don't know. You can't look at a comic book and analyze a fighting style as "practical" based on our experience with real-world physics; these guys aren't constrained by them, and might not be so constrained (as we understand them) even if they were "real."

Really, we may be running up against the whole concept of the Fighting stat. Is it a physical attribute, which is the way the game seems to treat it in character creation? Or is it a skill, which is the way it seems to be implemented in combat? Probably how you see this will influence where you stand on the whole Thor/Herc Un F stat debate.

I like TankerAce's differentiation of characters based on Fighting styles.

Would the system suffer greatly, if the F stat didn't appear in health, but was rather simply treated as a skill? Thus, sum four other attributes (say, ASE and maybe P to represent "fighting spirit" or "heart") rather than the usual FASE to get the health score, and treat F really more as a skill, which it probably ought to be anyway.

Just musing. Excellent thoughts.

Needless to say, I think that using the real world as a reference point is as fair as any. It is at least as fair as saying that because Character A generally shows more caution in combat, or jumps around alot, he has demonstrated superior skill than Character B who doesn't show the same degree of caution or doesn't jump around alot

Cap for instance takes a cautious approach to many of his fights precisely because he HAS TO... 'cause ANY attack that connects is likely to kill him. In contrast, Thor or Herc can take a more confident approach (which is a far cry from saying a careless approach) because they can easily shrug off the blows that would leave Cap broken and battered. For either Thor or Herc to fight like Cap vs. most opponents would simply be an unnecessary waste of energy, mere flash, and tactically unsound based on who or what might be analyzing the fight.

However, where Thor has fought enemies that had a significant chance of injuring him, he was depicted as fighting with due caution. Go figure.

As for what the Fighting talent represents; the bench marks in the advanced books make it somewhat unclear, seeming to combine schooled techique with innate aptitude.... and yet having multiple talents to represent various learned technique. So, to my thinking, the attribute represents a characters innate fighting aptitude.

Innate aptitude is what separates some schmuck who happens to have a black belt in some martial art from someone that is "just" a great fighter even though they might not be accomplished in any schooled technique; even as innate aptitude is what separates someone that holds a PhD in physics from Einstein.

Innate aptitude will always trump schooled technique. And innate aptitude will always determine the ceiling of one's ability, no matter the degree of athleticism. It is fundamental... and is thus an attribute rather than a talent.

This is why Thor or Herc don't need to have studied umpteen different martial arts to justify their Unearthly figthing rank. As deities, one must assume that their innate aptitude and comprehension of physical combat and physical problem solving stands head and toe above that of the humankind. They simply "get" fighting the same way (or moreso) Einstein "got" physics.

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My point is simply this.....

Thor’s Skills over General “Combat” is his supreme ability...

Years ago some author wrote out Thor’s and Beta Ray Bill’s stat pages.... And the focus for Thor was his mastery over “Combat”..... Not just “Fighting” but “Combat” as a whole.



Look at Thor’s original FASERIP from the mid 70’s and 80’s, and even the 90’s.....

F: UN:100 and Up.... I’ve seen rare stat pages where Thor has SX:150, but Consistently UN:100.
A: RM:30 Some have EX:20, but it never goes too far toward IN:40...
S: MN:75 to UN:100.... More Consistently UN:100.
E: MN:75 to UN:100...... More Consistently UN:100.



So Thor is Consistently about UN:100 for Fighting, Strength, and Endurance FEATs..... Hmmm the 3 most versatile Options for Violent “Combat”

His RIP is not so strongly focused upon by players and GMs since his ‘Body’ is so Powerful.... But Thor has a fairly powerful mind....

And if Thor were to lose his Great Strength and Endurance he would demonstrate more of his mental mantle......

Also, most of Thor’s FEAT rolls based on his ‘Agility’ are augmented with a power.... Pretty much justifying [+3CS] to [+5CS] to any Agility FEAT.... Ummmmmmm that comes to about UN:100 on the Result Grid........

Basically, it boils down to this...... A player RP Gaming with Thor has 3 ‘Unearthly’ options for “Combat” actions......... And these options are to specifically designed to nullify Player / GM arguments and misconceptions....

Almost Any physical FEAT can be handled on the Fighting Rank, even shooting, dodging, throwing, running and even lifting stuff.... But the Player and GM are real sticklers...

GM: You can’t use the ‘Fighting’ Rank for that FEAT.... It’s a Range Based Move....

Player: O.K..... Fine... I’ll use ‘Strength’ for the FEAT....

GM: But you can’t use ‘that’ Action on your Strength Rank either...

Player: O.K..... Fine... I’ll use ‘Endurance’ for the FEAT....

GM: Tisk..... But ‘that’ is not an Endurance FEAT.... It’s an Agility FEAT for Accuracy and Speed combined....

Player: But the Fighting Rank does Combine Accuracy and Speed; And Strength too, And Endurance as well..... Plus the Talents.... and a whole lot of other stuff....

GM: It’s an Agility FEAT.... Just Roll on the Agility Rank and quit trying to scam it.

Player looks over Thor’s Stat page: O.K. I’ll use these 3 Talents, in conjunction with this Power, on the Agility FEAT roll.....

GM: The FEAT roll is RM:30.... Not UN:100.... Thor is not that Fast and Accrete...

Player: But Thor’s 3 Talents, in conjunction with this Power ARE specific to his Agility....

GM: Good, I’m glad we came terms on this Action FEAT roll for Thor.... GM looks over the Result Grid..... “FUK!!!!”

Player: What??!!!

GM: The Combat FEAT roll ended up being identical to the original results for UN:100 “Fighting”....


The “Fighting” rank is the most complex Character attribute.... To a degree it encompasses the whole

“GET IT FUGGEN DONE NOW!!!! WHO CARES ‘HOW’ JUST MAKE IT FUGGEN HAPPEN”



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Basically what it comes down to is this...we can fire opinions back and forth from now till the end of time, pulling out every possible reference tool available to validate our particular stance on the subject and nobody here will ever change their mind or admit that they might be wrong.... I know in this matter that I won't, since it is something that I feel very strongly about. So really the only thing we can do is play the games as we and our particular group prefer to play the game.

But (and I'm not trying to open yet another round of the argument by saying this) I will point out that if you were to ask the Marvel Bullpen what their take on who the superior combatant would be(speaking skills of course), I can guarantee that the majority will respond with Captain America (as can be read in countless interviews by writers who work or have worked for Marvel) which is what I choose to base MY opinion and my game world on, since they are the ones responsible for portraying the characters and thus the ultimate source of what would be considered canon.

I think it is true that rarely does anyone completely change their mind, as in, doing a 180-degree conceptual turnaround.

I do think these discussions are valuable and enjoyable, though, because they can make you think. I know they have for me. I have come across a great deal of thought-provoking stuff in this (and other like-minded) threads.

My point about the limitations of using "real world" examples was really in terms of analyzing someone's combat style in a comic book as "practical" (i.e. would really work in the real world when used by non-supers) as opposed to "impractical" (99% of the Hollywood martial arts schlock, including but not limited to the whole HK "wire-fu" craze). Clearly the latter stuff doesn't work in an MMA fight. Most of the Thor type moves probably would (although Thor, like all comic book characters, seems to telegraph a boatload, which makes for more dramatic poses before, during and after an attack), assuming an average joe trained in them enough, while there is no way anyone now living could make some of the Spider-man type attacks even possible to do, let alone possible to pull off in a fight.

However, if you could find someone who could press over a hundred times his own body weight (like Spider Man), he might be able to make those schlocky, "wire-fu" moves not only possible, but possible in combat against a resisting opponent. That's all I meant. There's no possible "real-world" example we can use, because nothing in human scale has that kind of physical power, not even close. Normal human strength athletes, who are hugely strong, can put up anywhere from twice (for the heavier athletes) to three times their own body weight off the ground in press/clean fashion. Human gymnasts and acrobats, whose strength would be difficult to measure but who could probably dominate around 1.5 to 2x their own bodyweight, can do incredible things.

A human-scale person who could lift a hundred times their body weight...it's impossible to even guess how they could move, what they could do. That's the part that's tough to guess.

When it come to the Realistic Physics behind these “Super” Characters....


Spider-Man could join ‘ANY’ dojo or combat school Around the Earth and mop the floor with EVERY Human Fighter the Dojo has to offer...

After a month or so his “Fighting” Rank may probably go up to RM:35 maybe IN:40, but highly unlikely....

For Spider-Man’s “Fighting” rank to achieve IN:40 or Greater his (A.S.E.) has to be nullified by equal opposition...... Basically forcing Spider-Man to upgrade his “Fighting” and instinctively learning that innate aptitude.....



This is where Thor and Cap’n America and Wolverine and Punisher and other ‘Warrior’ type Characters have developed their “Fighting” Rank..... On the losing end of the ‘Stick’ where their Agility, Strength, and Endurance is not so useful......

On Thor’s Home World the fuggen family house cat has EX:20 Agility, Strength, and Endurance....... And Thor fights guys who have MN:75 Agility, Strength and Endurance as a ‘Norm’.......

“What??!! You can only heft 200,000 Tons.... You’re a Fuggen Puss!!!!”

“What??!! You can’t deal with the solid iron soccer ball.... Fuk, I’m only throwing at red hot speed!!!!”

“You better be able to catch this solid iron soccer ball... Cuz I’m gonna toss it at white hot speed”

“Don’t pizz me off.... I can toss this iron soccer ball into a heated plasma beam”

“What??!! You can’t run up this mountain side with your 3 Ton ‘Pocket Knife’.... Try a 'REAL’ Sword!!!!”

“I can’t believe you!!! The average schmuck around these parts can hold his Breathe for 5 ‘HOURS’.... You’re fuggen dying and shix after five minutes”

“Here.... We’ll start out ‘EASY’...... This is ‘Snukeumz’ My kitten..... Get to Fighting”



Same with Cap’n America... He tangles with guys like Spider-man, Iron-Man, Thing, Plastic Man, Juggernaut, Wolverine, Colossus, Goblin, Sand-Man, etc......... Steve Rogers’s [ASE] is nearly useless against these fools...... Better learn some joint locks, weight shifting, holds, and strikes that knock a Damm Grizzly Bear on his azz......



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