SAGA Conversions to MSH RPG

Is it just me or is there anyone else out there who does not trust the conversion table in the back of the SAGA MSH Adventure Game book?

--Secret ( dice chucker ) Defender

Never seen it.



DG X(

Marvel > DC

Go to the main screen which lets you click on Special Interest a few topics down from the Message Board notice.

Once inside Special Interests scroll down till you see Converting from SAGA.

Secret Defender.

Oh I have scanned that one before, I just wasn't aware it was copied directly from the back of the book. I've never tried converting any over before, but I hear that they amped up alot of powers in SAGA. Is that what you were refering to?



DG X(

Marvel > DC

Yeah. Surfer, for example, coverts with an Agility permanently @ Shift-X, controls and fires the Power Cosmic @ Shift-Y (including damage) and can boost his Strenth to Class 1000 or his Agility to Class 3000.



At first I thought that the conversion table was the only decent thing the game had to offer mechanically as source for MSH RPG.

Now I think the opposite. In the card game a power rated at 20 equals 20 regardless of the ability.

When converted to MSH RPG one ability @ 20 might = Unearthly, while another abilty @ 20 converts to Shift-X and another converts to Shift-Y.

In other words, in the card game Surfer does just as much damage to a villain with his Strength as his Power Cosmic (because they are both rated @ 20). He can augment his Strength to a 30 rating using the Power Cosmic.

But when he is converted to MSH RPG using that conversion table then his Strength can do 100 points damage (though it can be boosted to 1000 because 30 converts to a Class 1000 strength, but a 30 Agility = Class 3000!?!?!) His Power Cosmic does 200 points when converted.

Did any of those boys @ TSR who ripped off their own Fifth Age card game ever even play MSH Roleplaying Game, I wonder?

Secret Defender

*snort*

Those later day tight @#$%& actually do something a person might enjoy? What planet are you from? ;)

I doubt that any of the "new execs" at TSR/WotC even know what an RPG is. They certainly haven't shown it.

Gerrod

To be fair, D&D 3rd Edition is pretty damn good. IMO, better than any previous edition.

Hi Meta,

Sure it is. It's a rework of E.G.G.'s game Dangerous Journeys, which is still far superior to 3rd Ed. IMO.

Ahh, opinions. They're just like rectums. Everybody's got them, and everyone elses stink. ;)

Gerrod



If electricity comes from electrons; does that mean that morality comes from morons? G. Carlin

Yes, I must concede that WoTC has ressurected and saved D&D from the same fate that became of our beloved MSH RPG. It appears that the lads and lasses who reconfigured Gygax's creation took the best of his 1st edition, eviscerated the lame 2nd Edition (i.e., they kept very little of it) and then kept the creme' de la creme' of their revamp project's ideas.

I know that we have discussed the possibilty of their being a Superhero version of the D20 system. Since DC is locked in tight with D6/Legend the latest scuttlebutt is that our beloved Marvel is getting ready to actually strike a deal where a D20 version of the Marvel Universe is possible. My source is legit, but I haven't more info as of yet. But both sides are talking.


Case in point: The 3rd edition/D20 rules exceed 18 as the upper limit of PC strength. A human cannot begin his career at greater than 18 in any attribute ,however, per every 4th XPL a player may increase any attribute of his choice by +1 point. There is but one table that lists the bonus that an atribute yields. An 18 strength = +4 damage, an 18 intelligence = your character starts the game knowing 4 languages, etc.,.

The devil is in the details, but a Super strong Marvel character converted to the D20 system might have a stat as high as 30 (equivalent to the strength of a Fire Giant in 3rd edition, yielding a +10 damage modifer) or to that of a GreatGold Wyrm at 47, giving the character a +18 to his damage die(ce) roll.

Whereas in the MSH Advanced Set & Ultimate Powers Book there is Magic Simulation of Powers, you do the opposite with 3rd Edition/D20 system and convert the effects of the spell into a power. Of course, the Human Torch doesn't need to carry the material components of "a tiny ball of bat guano and sulfer" to throw a Fireball!

The bottom line is MONEY and how much Marvel can make for themselves as they hammer out an agreement to let WoTC publish their precious trademarked creations.

I have seen the future of roleplay gaming: It is THE D20 System. It does not matter if you or I like it or not.

And if you don't believe me, just ask White Wolf Games. Yes, their next big release is not based upon their OWN original and elegant six-sided dice mechanics. No. They are going D20 with EverQuest. That is just as if Steve Jackson Games (the G.U.R.P.S. people) announced " We now have the rights to publish a gaming sourcebook for the BLADE RUNNER and TOTAL RECALL universe. However, we will be using the rules from the D20 system, because we want to make money this time",.

It comes down to familiarity and exposure. Stores that never carry White
Wolf products most likely will sell D20 System materials. The majority of roleplayers who have no clue of or need for the World of Darkness system but are addicted to D20 will check out EverQuest as a yet another universe to go adventuring.

Currently, EverQuest is an online fantasy rpg. White Wolf has the rights to bring to the table top for dice-chuckers.

Secret Defender Incorporated.

S.D.I.--

I remember a time when those of us in the gaming community were *lauded* for our originality. Not for playing the bleating sheep, lost in a faceless pack of clones.

I should explain that comment for those of you eager to paint me as slamming S.D.I.. That's not what I'm doing at all. Actually, I hold S.D.I. up as a shining example of all that is *good* in our hobby--thoughtful, insightful, and passionate. Rather, I'm trying to say that I take issue with the "uniformity" it seems that everyone's so eager to embrace in the gaming world these days.

Dissect S.D.I.'s comments. He's right: WhiteWolf had an elegant, clever system. GURPS was a very successful foray into a self-contained, universal system, while retaining the flavor of any genre you applied it to (although it inevitably bears the very same stigma I'm about to lampoon). It was fine, on its own. But it seems as if both companies--nay, all of the gaming world--is being strongarmed into the WoC line of thinking.

But Bruce is NOT a Brownie.

An allegory, if you will: I am a hockey player. Do I want a skate designed and fitted by a rollerblader? Of course not. No more than a rollerblader wants something designed by a hockey player. That's because that, although the two disciplines are similar, they ARE different. As any adept skater can tell you, the skating motion remains constant, but because of the two different surfaces (one cuts ice, the other rolls on pavement), there will always be subtle distinctions. And each would prefer a product tailor-made to his own pursuits, their own specific nuances attended to.

Do I want to be as strong as a Gold Wyrm? As smart as any Illithid? As fast as a Quickling? NO. I'd PLAY AD&D, if that was the experience I wanted. I want to be as strong as the Hulk, as smart as Mr. Fantastic, and as fast as Northstar (hey, cut me some slack--I run an Alpha Flight RPG). And so, what I'm craving is something, like my skates, tailor-made to my pursuits. I want a SUPER-HERO game. Not a genre shoehorned into generic system.

Once upon a time, we had HUNDREDS of different game settings--and we all LOVED them. Why do you prefer the Star Frontiers rules over the Traveller rules? The Aliens rules over either? Or perhaps the reverse? But do both not have their own separate places where either would serve as better than the other? Perhaps, more pointedly, if you knew that the Aliens rules existed, why "twist" (as I know I did before the latter existed) SF to "mimic" Aliens when such a milleu already existed? It's easy. You love the individuality. You love the little distinctions that set each gaming universe apart--that made it unique and separate from its counterparts. I know that's why I learned Gangbusters. And Boot Hill. And Ace of Aces and Indiana Jones and.....

D20 has saved AD&D from the brink of destruction. Of that, there's no doubt. For that, WoC should certainly be lauded. We should be grateful for that. I know, at least for myself, it has (tainted) saved YEARS of memories of the game (Living Greyhawk???) that I love.

But by the same token, DON'T try and shoehorn the Hulk into a system built for Pixies.

After all--you wouldn't like Bruce, when he's angry.

Do YOU want to call Bruce a Brownie?


nocturne.

Hi Nocturne,

I'm mostly with you, although I still see WoC as yet another corporate extension of intractable evil. :rocket:

The thing is, I too remember when the small companies had a chnace to survive, which WoC is not about to allow to happen today. The shame of it is that it was VERY often these smaller companies that had the greater vsion and the greater creativity, being, as they were, less concerned with profits than they were with getting their ideas out into the world; the purity of small, off Broadway theatre compared to the marketing monster of Hollyweird. :(

Except for the web, the days of real RP are gone forever I fear. In ten years no one but those who can still remember it personally will have any idea what a multi-linear system is. Everyone of the new generation who doesn't have some crazy uncle, like you or I, ;)
will have to content themselves with the only thing available, re-marketings of some D20 system that will bore them six months later; RPG fastfood.

Does anyone out their remember first edition C&S? What Traveller was before it's Nth iteration, or how greta the detail of Space Opera was? Or maybe what a great time could be had by picking up a zip lock baggied game from a one lung company that you'ld never heard of before and that has long since disappeared into obscurity everywhere but in the hearts of the few? How many great ideas came out of those places and times?

I do not say that great ideas are restricted. The d20 games will spawn them too.... but, I fear, that being aimed towards the zombie crowd that needs such simplicity will water down the creativity of the new GM's. They'll have to aim lower, for these simpler audiences, and much will be lost.

Eventually, except for the occasional dinosaur in places like this, RPGing will come to be seen as the escapism of the marginally literate and will be disdained utterly by anyone with any creative flair. Sad.

Gerrod



If electricity comes from electrons; does that mean that morality comes from morons? G. Carlin

(Fact: Wizards of the Coast back in 1991 (?) were preparing for the possibility of declaring bankruptcy. Then one day, Richard Garfield, a game designer came in for an appointment to pitch two games. One was a board game, the other a card game.

The powers that be were not too thrilled by the board game, but were intrigued by the card game that Garfield called Magic. They hired him and paid him for his game.


I suppose my point is that WoC is not the enemy. They just want to publish games and systems that people will fall in love with so that they can put food on their tables and have shelter.

I too miss variety, however. Game companies are trying to cover themselves by presenting their own system, but then making sure that they have published a D20 alternate to hedge their bet.

There is a superhero game titled GODLIKE that has a system similiar to White Wolf but has enough differences to make it even more interesting and avoid a lawsuit from White Wolf. HOWEVER...they too are putting out a D20 version of Godlike.

From what I have gathered from some of the lads at my RPGA meetings, anyone who can give WoC $10,000 can purchase the rights to introduce their own world ( that's 10 G's per world by the way) into the D20 Universe...just do not violate copyrights and trademarks.

Ten years ago, almost out of buisness. Now, THE #1 RPG company in the world. God bless America?

SDI

Hi SDI;

Using my wife's computer again. Well, God Bless America? Not in this case. Sorry man, but here you and I are just plain and simple going to disagree.

WotC has been expending resources continually to keep competitors weak and smashing every ounce of creativity that comes along. These aren't ten guys running a comapny on a shoe string and trying to put bread on the table. That was what FGU was for so many years, and others as well, and they were doing it. They were being creative, putting bread on their table, and running their companies as much out of love of the industry and ideal as for monetary gain. It isn't just WotC though, it's the entire Big Money industry that this has come to be about.

E.G.G.'s improved system, Dangerous Journey's, as one relatively well known for instance, was beginning to take off when TSR dragged the whole thing into court, and lost. But because of injunctions and lawyers fees, by the time it was all done, so was Dangerous Journeys. Now, a few years later, TSR under the WotC banner, puts a simplified (and far less elegant) version of DJ out under the titel of 3rd Ed. AD&D. Gygax tried to go to court about it, but didn't have a chance in Hell against the corporate machine. He now has a new project in the works that looks just damned awful because it has to stay away from the system in use by the big boy, even though he was the primary developer of it.

WotC is the Walmart of the gaming industry and will do exactly what Walmart has done to independant stores in small towns all over the southern US, drive them under then blow out of town themselves when the profits decrease, leaving those towns ghost towns with half their economy gutted.

Gerrod

I work at Wal-mart.


SDI


P.S. Just kidding.