Spider-Man's Reason

Howdy!

Am I the only one who thinks Spider-Man's reason has always been a little low? I don't think it should be any higher than Remarkable, but I think Excellent is a little low. After all, the guy invented spider-tracers and web-shooters when he was sixteen. Also, Kitty Pryde is given Remarkable reason. Shouldn't Spider-Man be at least as smart as Shadowcat?

Thoughts?

Mike Davis

I agree. It has always been stated how smart he is, but never shown in game stats. I think the webbing itself is worth increased Reason. Of course he should have been smart enough to know that new costume would be trouble, but I guess that would fall under the heading of Intuition. Wait a minute that's suposed to be one of his strong points anyways isn't it? Hehe.


DG :bounce:

There seem to be a few characters like this. Beast @ excellent? and yet he had a hand in curing the Legacy virus? (ok he might have cured it, i didn't follow it.). This debate could be tacked on to the strength debate thread.

As for Spidey's intuition concerning the sybiote, i don't recall it exhibiting any form of sentience during the secret wars, and since it didn't trigger his danger sense, he probably thought it was ok. I sometimes think .ol' Spidey relies on his danger sense a bit to much. Just my opinion there.

Mark

I was just jokin'. ;D But I also agree with the Beast assesment as well. He took what the others before him had discovered and put the pieces together that no one else could. That's gotta be worth Remarkable.

DG :bounce:

at least! and heck with that vocabulary he could at least pretend to have Incredible ;)

I think this is one of the failings in the marvel game. Perhaps we should start assigning ability rolls to talents as well, instead of column shifts. Like for instance, Parker with Chemistry. If he made a roll lower than his reason, it would be +1cs his reason. Just a thought to help clear up Reason issues... after all, its not how smart a person is, but how well a person uses the skills he knows.

Peace Out,
Cavalier

Well in all fairness the Beasts intellect has been pumped up since 1986 or so. He certainly has a Intellect of RM. I think Peter's intellect is pretty good as is. That puts him on the level of a skilled scientist, which he is, but not on the level of someone who is a genius in a field like Bruce Banner. I just don't see Peter Paker being as knowledgable in chemistry and gadgets as Bruce Banner is in Radiation etc..

One thing however is that I increased Captain America's intellect to Excellent. It has been learned that his IQ is also very high and was affected by the serum. This is very touch and go with this one, but I felt it was a good move. Sometimes Intellect should reflect raw intellect, and it does not have to be raw tech knowledge. Odin has a Intellect of In and Mephisto of Mn and they use no advanced tech, obviously. Their Intellect would be in mystical knowledge. I also give Doctor Strange a intellect of EX. First he was one of the most skilled surgeons in the world, plus he has more mystical text knowledge than maybe any mortal period. If that does not rank a EX intellect I don't know what does, lol.

I agree with Strange, I to have always thought him smarter than as stated in most versions. Just being able to memoriez all those spells has got to be hard.

DG :bounce:

It seems odd to me that Banner only has Ex reason when he's miles ahead of most scientists.

Just my .02,
Rick

Hi all.

Ok, as GM for so bloody long I've viewed it this way:

While there is a connection between intelligence (Reason) and inventing/talent use, that is always only a small part of the equation. The major thing to invention is NOT the intellectual power involved, but is more determined by Inspiration.

Einstein said: Invention is 1% Inspiration and 99% Perspiration. Notice that in that quote that intellect is mentioned no where.

Inspiration is not simply imagination (all of us have that, and haven't cured cancer yet *grin*) but is a combination of factors, including what Marvel refers to as Talents, that come togeather to create the new possiblities. For instance, I've spent many a year wandering the corridors of academia (A fancy way of saying I'm a professional student.) and often found that the people doing the best research work weren't the brightest ones, but the rather they were the ones with that indefinable other quality; Inspiration.

So, Peter Parker doesn't need a Remarkable Reason, or even a good one (he could invent just as well with a Typical one) as he has that other quality in spades.

This is a good reason for not having all inventions in the Marvel universe made by Super types (although they're the ones with the stats for it). Inspiration.

While I agree I also have to say that, while in real life you have inspiration, as far as the game goes it doesn't exist. I don't mean to say that players and GMs don't add it but there is no stat or way to show this within the game rules, other than maybe Hyper-Invention. And sure you have your non-genius Ron Popiel types inventing anything and everything, but if you want to go to the negative zone you tap the guy with the big brain for a reason. You call Reed to invent and you call Ron to slow cook a chicken. While many inventions have been made by the common man, almost all major leaps are made by the people devoting their lives to knowledge and learning. Which is shown in games terms as Reason. And in this limited medium I believe Reason is the only way to show a characters ability and inclination to invent.


DG :bounce:

There seems to be a huge discrepancy between what a character does in the comics and what their reason is listed as. Spider-Man was a graduate student, a chemistry whiz, and always had the wits to come up with a clever plan. I agree that his Reason, as listed in the Judge's guide, is too low.
While we're on that, there are a few other characters in there who have Reasons that I think are too low. Daredevil and Thor both have Typical Reason scores. Now, granted, neither one of them is whipping things together like Tony Stark, but even the Human Torch, Iceman and Angel all have Good for a Reason score. Shouldn't Daredevil be just a little smarter than that?
For Thor, just take a look at the Asgardian stats in the back of the Judges book. The Reason score is Good, modified by a roll on the ability modifier table. Now, since Thor has a Typical Reason, it means he rolled a -1CS. In other words, he's the Asgardian equivalent of a complete idiot. This is the prince and hero of Asgard? A moron?
I think Spider-man's Reason should definitely be higher, and I think some of these other characters should have a higher Reason, too.

Yep, Daredevils a brain. Should be at least Gd.
Thor, though, is mythologically one of the thicker Asgardian gods. He gets fooled and mucked about a lot, and his reaction to most problems is 'Thor will Smash!' His comparatively low Reason probably reflects this.
On the other hand, Thor traditionally has red hair, so they're probably ignoring a lot of stuff.

Hi Again guys.

The point isn't that there is no stat that shows what you're after, but rather that there doesn't need to be one, and shouldn't be one.

Reason is: raw intellectual strength. That leaves out alot and leaves room foralot of inter play that doesn't need stats to explain them.

Really, if you try to quantify every possible thing by stats, you need hell of alot more than seven stats to do it with, or the individual stat gets so watered down as to mean nothing.

If a stat is to broad, it looses meaning. If a stat is too narrow it looses utility.

Instead of making every character you happen to like for one reason or another be re-written with higher stats, simply tell your players openly that the stats do NOT quantify everything. Trust me, as a GM with 25 years plus of running every game that has come down the pike at one time or another, I've found that trying to over quantify is a Pandora's Box better off left sealed.

Drax :hot-hot-hot:

What I believe is the bigger Pandora's box is to say that what a character can and cannot do has nothing to do with the stats. Why have stats then, why not just have every character be nothing more than the sum total of the players abilities. That is where inspiration must come from, yourself not the character. Would you allow a person with only an Excellent Reason invent a Time Travel device without a rediculously high high Reason check? I would hope not. Inspiration doesn't grant the ability to follow through with your ideas, it just gives you ideas. I can be inspired to imagine a travel device that allows people to fly with but a thought and a special belt, but what do I do now? I have all the inspiration in the world but without knowledge/reason I am not smart enough to make one. I'm not saying limit the characters to simply what is on the sheets, what I am saying is you can't ignore the sheets otherwise why have them. If a character with a relatively low Reason comes up with an idea to build something I believe is out of his range to come up with I would most definately force a Reason check. Just because I can imagine a device that will propel me through time doesn't mean I have even the smallest idea how to make one work or that my character does either.

And I believe you are misunderstanding Einstiens quote completey. He isn't saying that brains have nothing to do with it, he's saying the oppisite of your arguement. Your saying coming up with the idea is the most important part. The quote is saying that it is easy to come up with an idea(inspiration), it's alot harder to turn an idea into a functioning theory, robot, etc. and so on.

And as an aside I have to wonder why some people feel the need to prove they are smarter/better about/at roleplaying because of X years of playing. I guess I am calling you out on this one. 25 years huh? Well that puts you at ground zero for when roleplaying games first came out. If true then I am honored. Other than a couple brief discussions with Gary Gygax on the now defunct Eric Noah's 3e D&D message boards, you are one of the "oldest" old time players I have met. Me I only started at the age of 11 around '86, a good 10 years after you started playing.

In closing I say you can't limit charcters to their sheets, but you can't let them ignore the fact that the game is run the way it is run. Reason + Hyper-Invention = overall ability to invent. Change the rules if you wish (which I do all the time) but you cannot deny that, as is, this is the way the game is set up.

DG :bounce:

I guess you missed this part.

>>Inspiration is not simply imagination (all of us have that, and haven't cured cancer yet *grin*) but is a combination of factors, including what Marvel refers to as Talents, that come togeather to create the new possiblities. For instance, I've spent many a year wandering the corridors of academia (A fancy way of saying I'm a professional student.) and often found that the people doing the best research work weren't the brightest ones, but the rather they were the ones with that indefinable other quality; Inspiration.<<

So. Yes, stats do have to be used, yes the Reason rolls (multiple) for someone with a Good Reason inventing a personal Time Travel
device do get to the point of the rediculous, but Peter Parker couldn't do it either without rolls very nearly as onerous.

You're comparing apples and oranges. Your original arguement about the web slinger creating devices that were advanced over his stat does not mean that anyone but an idiot would go so FAR the other direction. Aunt May not inventing the Trans-dimensional Emographier any time soon does not mean that everyone in the game who invents webbing will need to be Reed Richards either.

Drax

But to say that just because someone isn't the smartest in his field doesn't mean they aren't smart. I mean really. I never said you need to the smartest person on the planet to reason and discover the super sense black holes at the center of galaxies, but on the same token you can't do it with an intellect that can't understand how your VCR works. it seems to me as if you are trying to further the arguement that it's all inspiration and hard work and if you have those two things that intellect is a trivial matter.

If for no other reason at all I believe Peter deserves a Rem. intellect for discovering a synthetic polymer based adhesive back in the '60s. How many light years ahead of his time was he. If it happened in real life don't you think he would have been recognized as a scientific genius in many ways. How could someone that smart not have the mental capability to understand how andvanced curcitry and computers work (which is the benchmark given for Rem. Reason).

I think you have an apple in front of one eye and an orange in front of the other. I don't see anywhere that I said that only Einstien could invent the web slingers. What I am saying is that for a 17 year old kid discovering this stuff back in the day would take more brain power than he is shown to have by his stats. This is something he did in his spare time with a pathetic little home lab set upstairs in his bedroom at his aunts house. How many scientests could have done that in that day with the best lab equipment in the world. Not many I'd bet. Now if he discovered Post-its I wouldn't care what his Reason is, but to do what he did with what had he at the age he did you have to be damn smart. It's alot smarter IMO than just being able to modify existing technology.

And shouldn't he have a higher Reason than Shadowcat?
DG :bounce:

Hi Again.

No, I see no reason for a Reason higher than ShadowCat's. The difference is that he does use his (and remember, his Reason would put him in the sub-genius level to begin with) and Kitty does NOT use hers.

Just because a guy has a Einstein level intellect does NOT mean that he will (or even can) use it creatively.

I never said that a high stat doesn't help to make someone a great inventor, just that it isn't neccessary. Take the example of Francine Resellente, who has done some of the best work in particle physics in the last half century (she is a Theoretical Physicist at the University of Vienna), and who has, according to her bio, 123 IQ.

That still isn't low, but it would fall into the high end of Good to low end of Excellent Reason and illustrates how a person of determination and inspiration can completely do without a genius level intellect in even the most difficult and esoteric of fields.

Drax

Thor DOES deserve a higher reason than TY(6). That is too low. If any of you would like to check it you can, but he's given EX(20) Reason in the Avengers Coast-to-Coast supplement which is an official product. The books not in front of me this second, but I'm positive that's what it says and I'll write back after I've checked. The next lord of Asgard can't be a dope, let's face it. Thanks, Meanstreak.

Next Lord of Asgard? Check your mythology, mate. Odin rules 'till the Ragnarok, when he is devoured by Fenrir and Thor dies fighting Jormungand.
Besides, Ty is not stupid. It's what it says - typical. If you look at Thor's record in the comics, he's not exactly noteworthy for his habit of outwitting his opponents, is he?