What is REALLY top human Endurance?

Remarkable, I almost never do that for normal human beings. I mean, does this guy have more stamina than DareDevil, in as good a shape as any normal human should be? Captain America is at Rem., but shouldn't that be an incredibly rare level, even for an inshape human adventurer? Is he virtually tireless like Captain America?

Where would a top Marathon runner be? I would say around Excellent. Maybe it'd be Remarkable. How about a mid-level Marathoner? I've seen that U.S. Marines have endurance, on average, around Good. Some top troops, around Excellent. Though I will admit cops and soldiers in the comics aren't normally too tough, they're more cannon fodder for heroes to show up; especially un-named troops like Gate Guard Number 2, Soldier 4, Policeman at door.

Anyway, what is top human endurance? I know the book says, Ex. Works out lots and lots. Rem: Works out lots and lots and lots. But I think DareDevil would then qualify for Rem. I mean, Cap is at the very peak, supplemented by the Super Soldier Serum. And he's at Rem 30? Something is not quite right.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/20/2006 08:17PM by Mark.

I agree with you on that. I have thought for a while now that Cap should have In endurance being peak human,fast healing abilities and seemingly untireing. That would allow some of the Daredevil like guys Rm and then the more regular toughs Ex.

Well if you check out the original entries for Captain America from the OHOTMU it notes that the Super-soldier formula basically prevents the build-up of fatigue poisons in his blood, on top of his peak human endurance as a result of his genetic restructuring. It's so much a part of him his body will produce more whenever he's somehow deprived of it (as when he had to have a transfusion to remove the meth-contaminated portion).

Considering how long he's been around while he started at peak human he's had extensive training since then, so by now a move up to Incredible wouldn't be so much a stretch, but it does make him less the icon of humanity and more a part of super-humanity. It would make more sense to list his resistance to fatique and disease (since he's very rarely ill) as a power, resulting from his peak physical abilities and super-soldier formula, instead of listing him with a higher endurance. Say Amazing or Monstrous resistance to Fatique and Disease.

Why not simply state,... that for purpose of dealing with fatique and/or resistance to disease/toxins/etc. He is counted at End +1CS or +2CS?


Its like giving resist domination talent that counts at Psy +1CS, having equivalent for Endurance for cap would seem like a best solution.


Although, I am not sure that resistance vs disease is really that necesseary,... Endurance at Remkable in itself makes him pretty tough vs most of diseases(and he seems to take care of his health regardless of his endurace, that might make seem like he has estraordinary health on top of that). And does cap do any marathons(not that he could not), really... like regularly? He has all these nice bikes/jets(or other cool vehicles) to use when he has to go somewhere farther than a couple mile walk... anyhow, just thinking aloud.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/21/2006 07:27AM by AngelDM.

I'd hate to think how much a super-hero like Captain America burns off in calories compared to a Marathon runner or cyclist. Considering the kind of combat he ends up involved in (especially thanks to the SRA), he's pretty much running one daily. I do wonder though how much of his current physique is from his regular, intensive exercise and how much is automatically maintained by the enhancements worked by the Super-soldier Serum.

I think that the various character stats indicate that Excellent is peak human Endurance. It is what guys like DD and Hawkeye are ranked at, and I'd think that they represent a group that engages in intensive regular exercise. Many, many mutants that engage in similarly intense exiercise would be ranked at Ex too, except that they get that +1CS to End. in the game.

Cap's Rm places just above human excellence, and on par with most write-ups I've seen on Wolverine... which seems about right, or others that have enhanced stamina/durability.

The benchmarks have Typical as being average human, but really, people in the West are typically flabby, out of shape, and overly reliant of technology to get them from point A to point B. Thus, I'd say that average is more like Poor here in the West.

A marathon *runner* would be, like, Good to Excellent. Afterall, a fair number of people could walk a marathon, far less can slow-jog and marathon, but only a select few can run a marathon in anything approaching record time. And none of those that can run a marathon in record time are 225 lbs like Captain Amercia. They're, like 125 lbs, thereabouts.

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So Powersurge, would you say that in general, top human Endurance is Ex. with someone needing a REALLY good reason (Super Soldier serum) to be listed at Rem.?

"My parents went to The Secret Wars Battleworld and all I got was this lousy T-Shirt..."

Technically, if you are rolling up a normal human then the highest possible roll is Excellent. Only Mutants,Altered Humans and the like can reach over the Ex barrier. Now as far as upgrading over time, that could be a tricky slope. How do you justify a Punisher like human character upgrading beyond the normal limits. Say moving his max strength from Ex to Rm or agility from Rm to In.

According to the Judges book these look to be the maximum human potentials. I think some of those are pretty high and really only represent a handfull of really rare people.

F-Am
A-In
S-Ex
E-Rm
R-Am
I-In
P-Am

It also states that dodging a bullet is an In agility feat. Multiple bullets is an Am feat. Don't know to many people that can dodge bullets and don't have enhanced reflexes or senses.

Mark Wrote:
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> So Powersurge, would you say that in general, top
> human Endurance is Ex. with someone needing a
> REALLY good reason (Super Soldier serum) to be
> listed at Rem.?

In my estimation, exactamundly.

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T'Challa, The New Avengers: Illuminati 1

I think intuition and Psyche technically top out higher than that, but the only known example of a normal human having higher (Monstrous Intuition and Unearthly Psyche) that I know of is Dr. Strange, and he likely started his career at Incredible and Amazing respectively. Then again some might argue mystic potential isn't a normal human attribute (although I'd have to dispute that from a Marvel perspective) and would be necessary for an otherwise normal human to reach those levels. However he's also listed as having a Remarkable Endurance, yet one can hardly say he runs marathons and the like, so perhaps Endurance in at least some cases reflects durability as a result of something beyond intense physical activity and instead an innate toughness instead.

I think some people here underestimate how long marathon really is.... at least in US/Canada it is a rare thing to find anyone who is capable of walking, never mind running marathon. How many people out of millions living US could honestly walk that far? Percentage wise... ((not to mention most people would drop half way do to sore feet))

Also, most of the time combat takes little time... I am not saying cap cannot run marathon but comparing calorie burned in combat and during marathon run is not right.

Also assuming that Cap can be still be considered human and uses human muscles, running marathon develops more of endurance, slow twitch, muscle mass... developing which a combatant like Cap would really would want to avoid. ((Also, extensive continious calorie burn like marathon run is a catabolic exercise... it burns muscle mass, something that does not happen to Cap - although it would despite his serum if he still were human, even assuming that serum prevented him from tireing)).

There is another thing, the best way to keep mass, muscle mass that is, up and strength is NOT to exercise heavily/continiously/constantly/extensively... just exercising each muscle group once week you can upkeep and increase its strength(like in bodybuilding), if you go pump iron/run marathon daily you infact might get weaker((not to mention you might not be able to supply enough food to keep body going at is current level... and Cap was never presented as food devouring Galactus - not to that extreme anyhow))


........
Okay,... nm above just blabbing... but I could come up with perhaps a dozen reasons exactly why marathon running and Cap dont mix,.. or marathon like activity on relatively consistent basis(Even if Cap was not getting tired - he would simply burned off all his callories and muscle mass an became a stick person :D) and Cap dont mix.




What I mean to say, that assuming that Cap is still human((even if at peak performance)) he should have Excellent, at best Remarkable Endurance, at least from physical point of few. You might consider adding that +1 resist fatique on top but that is it.

If you consider lack of sleep as a measure of endurance... well... on occasion, and not raraly there was period I consistently was going for 3 days without sleep... once even 4days, does that give me Incredible endurance? No. At a time I could not even do a two mile run ((and likely if I continued lifestyle like that over a few months it would have killed me.. probably)). For that mather.. I believe resistance to sleep could be, at least not for physically active people based of Psyche as much as from Endurance :D



So... to summary all that,... in short... whatever Powersurge said I think is right :D




Ahh add note: Big problem with endurance that is is used for so many things,.. fatigue... resistance to diseases/toxins,.. damage.... when generally a lot them area really different...


Look at pro marathon runner,.. vs. pro bodybuilder, you can argue the point... but marathon runner has Excellent endurance, and bodybuilder typical/good... but take a baseball bat to marathon runner and he will bowl over(even go into the air a bit ;) from the force of impact), pro bodybuilder just might look at you like a fly and then break your neck...


What I am saying, that a bulky thug with Poor Endurace get shafted, and they might be in fact harder to take down than someone with much greater Endurance...


Add note #2
Also, Dr.Strange,... is considered altered human. As stated by Advanced Player Handbook

Add note #3
At least by standard rules, Caps faster healing than normal is nothing special... but quality of(ehh,... lets assume Remarkable enduracec) he normally heals 5 times as fast as a typical person... or even roughly 8 times if you will assume Poor is todays standard for endurance.


wheee

I think the reference to Dr. Strange being an altered human is really an error, as there's no example of him being altered in any way. All of his power is based on training and learning mystical knowledge, and could be learned by anyone with sufficient mystical potential. The only alterations he can be said to have are the mystic Anhk that shows up on his forehead to warm him about impending danger (and most writers forget about), and his having ceased to age after a mystical test he underwent. Other than that he's a completely normal human who's simply developed his mind and mystical potential beyond most human comprehension.

I am not sure he is a "completly normal human"... consider that Doctor Strange has Remarkable Endurance, or Monstrous Intuition / Unearthly Psyche(something rather out of "normal" person's potential).


Perhaps dealing with magical energies all these times altered him or maybe he used a small self improvement spell... I do not know nor do I know a lot about Doctor Strange, but I do know that he is far above a regular/standard magic user so... I am sure there people that know more about him.

I like the physical human stats where they are.

MAX
Fighting - Amazing, Agility- Incredible, Strength - Excellent, Endurance - Remarkable.

This gives a 120 health.

I do think there should be a chance for Human beings to pass the Amazing mark on the mental side. Perhaps a natural roll of 100, means you should get a chance to earn a Monstrous mental ability.....say if you can roll a 99 or 00 again.

Cap's stats are above IMO maximum human potnetial, and that goes double once you take his build into consideration.

I don't think that any human being has ever exhibited Excellent Strength, representing the ability to military press 801+ lbs, ie. a low-end Rm intensity weight, at peak performance. The strongest powerlifters we know of have *unofficial* records that place them in the Good category, ie. 401+ lbs on a Red FEAT, but most of their offical records for a over the head press fall within the Good range, and I doubt that even a monster like WWE's Big Show could military press 801+ lbs.

My range for Strength is...

Feeble = elderly, children, chronically ill or handicapped adults (shhh, don't tell those wheelchair guys with the enormous upper-body strength)

Poor = your average person, an wellonditioned light weight.

Typical = well conditioned man of average height and weight.

Good = linebackers, pro. wrestlers, well conditioned men of exceptional height and weight.

Excellent = ????

I agree that equating stamina to toughness makes for a poor model. There is no way that a 115 lbs marathon runner is going to be as durable as a natural heavy weight. The bone structure is smaller/thinner, and less dense. You'd think that a better representation for health, that also factors in the pushback factor of a lightweight vs. the planted factor of the heavyweight (can a fly take a human swat? sometimes, yeah... 'cause it rarely planted/rooted and weighs little). Anyway, perhaps a (Sx3) + (F + A + E/3) would be a more accurate equation. Afterall, you can only be so strong without size, and size equals greater durability.

It might also be more appropriate to use Strength for determining slam resistence, and charges, but I'd still use End for determining stuns... for no other reason than that just cause you're big and strong dfoesn't mean you can take a solid punch on the button.

Anyway, enough meandering babble. The son is calling... he's bored. And has the chicken-pox. Not to worry though, he's pumped for Yuletide all the same!!

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"You just decided *all by yourselves* that you are the Earth's protectors. And that you, and *only* you, not your teammates or family, are trustworthy enough to include in the process..."

T'Challa, The New Avengers: Illuminati 1

I think physical size and damage-soak ability ends up guiding at least some of the assignment of ranks to characters. Someone complained about Volstagg having a Shift-X Endurance, and how could he be healthier and have more stamina than someone like Thor, when in his case it reflects just how much punishment he can absorb. You end up having to walk a fine line between what makes sense in some cases and not in others, so for 'normal' humans whatever factors bring it about Remarkable ends up the peak for a human who's not been augmented in some fashion. You just don't see it except in rare cases.

About bench pressing.... there is couple people that are past 801 pound mark bench press(actually,.. past a 1000 pound mark).

I know it is not a military press, but then I don't believe PHB states that military press is to be used...merely ability to "lift" x weight and not necessarily over their heads(but I might be wrong here)

If you try [en.wikipedia.org]
and alternatively,
[en.wikipedia.org]
[www.bench-press.net]
you can find information about unique people benching over 1000 pound under these lings.
((but still,.. that is likely along lines of red strength feat....))

However, for Cap... even if he does not tire... the way he is built, at least compared to a number of pros, he should likely be Good(or even typical depending on who draws him, but anyways)... but then he is special,.. so Ex is okay. Ehh, never mind how they draw him.... .

Imo... he truly should be altered human... not regular human. Especially considering what he can/cannot do...
There is interesting stuff under [www.marveldatabase.com]) about Cap. Not that it is a Bible about him,... but can give some material to think over.

Now, when it comes to Cap's Endurance it has been stated, not everywhere... but some places... that at peak power he can go for up to one hour. What does that make his Endurance like? Ex? Rm?.... or is it Ex with +1CS for purpose of dealing with fatique? Something else? Hmm.


Note: For the Steve Rogers link,... for some reason it does not act right and you should add closing brackets in the url(maybe, simply... it is only my brower that is faulty)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/23/2006 10:09PM by AngelDM.

My point of reference would be the same as the PHB; that being the OHOTMU (the first wo) in which it was stated that the lift/press meant the ability to lift a weight to one's shoulders and then press it over one's head.

Alsond bench-presses that use those lame "flex-shirts" to aid in the press are, well, lame and shouldn't be counted. According to the links you referenced, the heaviest "raw" benchpress is 713 lbs.

Those other benchpress are performed with a very stiff shirt that flexes under great weight and has a "rebound" factor in that it wants to retunr to the original shape and thus helps the lifter press the weight back up. Lame.

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"You just decided *all by yourselves* that you are the Earth's protectors. And that you, and *only* you, not your teammates or family, are trustworthy enough to include in the process..."

T'Challa, The New Avengers: Illuminati 1

My understanding is that the super soldier formula created Steve from a frail and sickly young man to the peak of human perfection. Giving him stated stats. But that similiar formula being given to above average healthy individuals gave them higher strength and endurance. Like in the german supersoldier program and the U.S. agent. Cap is an altered human but is slightly outside the range of what unalterd humans can achieve. Compare him to Batman,Daredevil and Ironfist, he is stronger and has more endurance. I think those 3 should have around Gd strength which ranges from 200-400lbs. Ex is 400-800 lbs and would be used for those Hulking masses like Arnold but those guys arn't olympic medal gymnists.

I am sure you are right, as I said I was not sure myself. For the lifting, I was thinking of Advanced Players Book.... I also seem to recall example with She-Hulk and "pressing"... well, its been a while and am kinda rusty with marvel things.