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Warlock
Magic......again
December 27, 2001 05:02AM
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<HTML>I know this has been brought up before, but I was just wondering how everyone handles it (if at all) in there games. Many people have stated that Magic bolts of energy (or Bolts of Bedevilment) would not be stopped by a conventional Force Field. I on the other hand would have to disagree. As much as I would like to make Warlock that powerful I can't believe that the source of the energy would affect it's properties that much. The Realms of Magic book states that a Bolt of Bedevilment is in the form of raw energy. Wether the energy came from a star, laser pistol, someone's eyes or a magic spell shouldn't change what and how things affect it. I personaly rule that a blast of energy is a blast of energy no matter the source. Sure magic creates the blast but once there it has the same properties as any beam of energy has. A regular force field should stop it. Now a magic sleep spell on the other hand I would rule that the standard force field wouldn't stop because it isn't set up for stopping pure magic.
As a side note I changed the rules in the Realms of Magic books to be more realistic. The rules as is states that when you cast a spell you must check to see if you get it off correctly using the spells Power Rank to determine success. If you think about for a minute you'll see the flaw in that a Sorcerer Supreme with a Unerathly Psyche would have less of a chance of getting off a Good (a really weak spell) spell than a Novice with a Good (bear minimum) Psyche would of getting of a Unearthly (something that should be out of his league) spell. That is why I use Psyche to determine success and Spell Power Rank to determine effect.
Any thoughts anyone?
DG :bounce:</HTML>
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D. Goforth
Re: Magic......again
December 28, 2001 01:27AM
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<HTML>I usually agree with you Warlock, but on this one, I'll lend you my thoughts. Magic, in any form or function, as I've always judged it, is an unknown, otherworldly source of limitless energy that a mage, wizard, witch, etc. is trained to draw upon for their abilities. Almost every system I've ever played deals with it that way, from Shadowrun to D&D, Champions, and to Marvel. The damage it incurs should be separate altogether from normal energy, electricity, etc. If a dude with with Cl3000 True Invulnerability but no magic resistance gets hit with a RM(30) Eldritch Bolt, then his butt is taking 30 points of damage, period. But it is a thoughtful point to bring up Warlock, as Magic is always going to be an ongoing debate for judges. Thanks for reading. D Goforth.</HTML>
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Warlock
Re: Magic......again
December 28, 2001 05:04AM
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<HTML>I agree with you to a point. What causes the beam of energy to come into being is otherworldy and cannot be stoped by anything short of magical means, i.e. a counter-spell or magic shield. But once the spell is over what are you left with? A bolt/beam of energy. Now my question is why would this beam of energy be different than any other? If I use magic to form a steel wall in front of a charging Aunt May, wouldn't she run into it like any other? Wether the wall was put there by the All-Mighty Vishanti or Bob's Discount No-We-Are-Not-Connected-To-The-Mob Wall Builder's, a wall is still a wall. A bolt of energy a bolt of energy.
I draw my opinion directly from all the other games, as I said I have played a magic user in almost every game (except Paranoid, but we won't get into that little ball of psychosis here) ever made by man. And in all those games the "magic" ends with the desired effect. I conjure a wall of iron as per the spell in D&D and I get exactly that. It still must obey all the laws of physics and nature and as a matter of fact is, in a way, worse than a regular wall of iron as it also must follow the laws of magic as well (it can be unsummoned/dispelled unlike a normal wall).
Again using D&D as an example. Say my character Warlock had his bolts of bedevilment act like a Lightning Bolt spell, the point of origin is not fixed to being shot out of his eyes/hands/privates. If Captain Force Field is in front of him with shields raised and Warlock had the point of origin for his bolts be on the outside of the shield, the spell goes into effect and a beam of energy hits the shield and bounces off. Why? Well IMO the spell acts only for an instant and disapears. It is cast, conjures a bolt of energy and then is done leaving behind a regular old bolt of energy just like every other one in the universe. Now if Warlock were to change the point of origin to inside the shield then good Captain Force Field would get hit bodily about his person. Why? Because the shield can stop energy just like any force field but cannot, in this case, stop what causes the beam to come into effect. The magic passes through and the effect takes place inside the shield. If it takes place outside the shield then by the time the beam hits the shield the magic has come and gone and IMO has nothing to do with the interaction of the shield and the energy.That is why I said/think that something like a Sleep spell would affect someone behind a shield, the shield can't stop the magic itself from the good Captain and once the magic touches him the effect of sleep is then applied.
This type of spell is called an Eldritch Beam/Bolt. In this class are almost all the types of energy including Fire/Heat, Electricity, Darkforce and Energy. Wouldn't you rule that Shift-X protection from fire would stop an Eldritch Bolt of Flame? Otherwise the term Flame would refer only to it's visual shape. Now if Eldritch Fire acts like fire then shouldn't Eldritch Energy act like energy?
This of course is all MHO. All rights to disagree and throw rotten food are reserved.
DG :bounce:</HTML>
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D. Goforth
Re: Magic......again
December 28, 2001 09:51PM
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<HTML>Alot of thought given on the subject, I believe a simple system could be worked out. I do currently operate magic in my games with an Eldritch bolt of flame would be just visual, and the damage magical, as you described. I mainly do this to keep magic in itself separate and mystical, aside totally from power-based powers from mutants, cyborgs, etc.. In my mind, for me it works better and it puts an element of fear in players that are big and bad playing alongside a 5'6" little mage guy with an Unearthly Eldritch bolt capability, just an example though. To me, mixing them up gets too confusing. I guess whatever works for the judge/GM and the players will suffice in any situation, although, as I've learned from reading these message boards on this website for the last 7-8 months, is that compared to alot of guys on here I tend to run things with a smooth simplicity, but with class in my games. Too many of these guys overthink stuff to the point of a brain overload. If you could work out a system with the magic damage/real energy damage stuff Warlock I would like to read it and maybe playtest it a little. Thanks for reading. D. Goforth.</HTML>
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Warlock
Re: Magic......again
December 29, 2001 01:45PM
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<HTML>Well I just use the Realms of Magic supplements you can get from Zan's. There is a spell called Eldritch Flame which I would treat as seperate from real flame, but what I was talking about is the class of spells reffered to as Eldritch Beams or Bolts. I compare it to the Distance Attack table in the powers section of the Player's Book. Wether the source is magic, mutant or altered human wouldn't a blast of energy be a blast of energy. I don't find it difficult at all to treat some of the spells as just magic versions of regular powers. I think it makes Mages wayyyy to powerful to say that Jimmy Apprentice with his Excellent Bolt of Bedevilment(energy beam) can take out Thing because the source of his Energy is different. Believe me as a long time (at least 10 years) player of Mages in Marvel I wish I could say my Amazing Bolts are unstoppable because they are from a different source but if you read the rules in the Player's Book it says that the spells are basically just another way to explain the powers. Even the infinately more elaborate Realms books say that the spells use the magic to shape and form existing energy and matter to achieve desired effects.
And I quote "I can't make something out of nothing. Magic is basically a study of forces. Once one knows how to channel these forces, though, the results can be quite striking."-Doctror Strange. That is a quote directly form Realms of Magic II helping to explain how magic works. Now explain to me how that is any different than how a laser gun works. The gun takes existing energy and shapes it into a beam of energy focused at whoever the wielder was aiming at. Isn't that what the spell is doing. Taking existing energy and shaping it into a beam of energy focused at whoever the wielder is aiming at. Isn't that how Cyclops power works. He takes existing energy and shapes it into a beam of energy focused at whoever the wielder he is aiming at. If the Energy is treated the same for Cyclops and the gun then why would it be diferent because it was magic that herded it up and threw it at someone.
If people chose to keep magic sperate and apart from the rest of the powers, so be it. I surely didn't bring this up to try and tell anyone how to play their game but I just thunk this is a fundamental flaw in the way magic is meant to be viewed in the game by most. Maybe I've been reading the rules wrong all these years as I surely am human, but either way it just doesn't make sense or seem to keep game balance to say that Magic is that much more powerful than it already is. With the double karma loss and restricted Karma earnings because of study time I think they are balanced just right. Being able to bypass that Unearthly Body Armor with an Excellent Sleep spell is bad enough.
DG :bounce:</HTML>
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D. Goforth
Re: Magic......again
December 30, 2001 01:54AM
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<HTML>You have many valid points Warlock. I wish I had gamed with more players over the years that put as much thought into their mages as you do. It's usually me having to encourage them to make their characters more colorful. Speaking of Realms of Magic, I used to have a copy long ago, but lost it or a buddy has still got it somewhere. It probably can be downloaded now, but I would like to have an original copy. Pass some info my way if you know where I can get one. Also Warlock, keep your eyes peeled on the homegrown character part of the board, I'm getting ready to post my 10-year old Marvel guy on there to see what people think. Thanks. Later, D. Goforth.</HTML>
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Warlock
Re: Magic......again
December 30, 2001 06:06AM
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<HTML>Cool. My suggestion for the actual books are ebay. Try this <a href="[ listings.ebay.com]; target="_new">eBay Super Hero RPG lists</a>. Hope it works. You can get stuff pretty cheap here, but before you bid on anything check out Amazon's zShops. I just won a bid for 19$ on Ragnarok and Roll on eBay when I could have bought it on the zShops for 5$. Live and learn.
DG :bounce:</HTML>
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