Captain America's new look via Alex Ross

Posted by Punstarr 
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Captain America's new look via Alex Ross
October 11, 2007 01:47PM
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[www.marvel.com]...

So here's Cap's new look via Alex Ross. What do people think? Me, I'm
wondering... a GUN?! o.O

Re: Captain America's new look via Alex Ross
October 11, 2007 02:04PM
:!)-D(tu)
Re: Captain America's new look via Alex Ross
October 11, 2007 03:12PM
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While Cap did use things like guns and knives during WWII that was as an agent of the US military where he was approved like all military personnel during a war and not something he'd do as a civilian, which as a hero he is/was. Makes me think of that short run with Azrael as Batman brutally beating up criminals with escalating violence to give the fans who wanted him more brutal an example of what it'd really be like so that they'd want the original back.

Setting up a new Captain America who uses weapons designed to kill like knives and guns simply isn't Cap and tarnishes his heroic image and just makes him another Black Ops military hitman more like US Agent or perhaps even worse. I know the title isn't going to be going back onto my buy/read list anytime soon with that kind of stuff going on.

It's also a poor reflection on what they think of the world now when they 'reimagine' a character by making it more brutal and more ruthless, that somehow heroic ideals are 'outdated' and a 'real' hero runs around killing and brutalizing to get his goals achieved.

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/11/2007 03:14PM by Nightmask.
Re: Captain America's new look via Alex Ross
October 11, 2007 03:34PM
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I fear it may be the 90s anti-hero taint all over again... "Captain America is too goody goody for modern kids. They don't want a hero who beats up bad guys. They want a hero who racks up a body count. Let's give him a gun and... his costume has to have black in it! Why? To appeal to the kids who just love grim and gritty heroes".

Ugh. Cap is not Batman, and I fear that's what they're trying to turn him into. I hope I'm wrong... I'm not making assumptions, just voicing my fears.

Personally, I thought Cap proved in Civil War with quotes like the one in my signature that the heroic ideals of old are anything but outdated... Cap was once again "cool" in many people's eyes, and then they killed him... now he's being brought back with a costume that looks like it's a combination of the chrome costumes popularized by Image in the 90s, Punisher and Batman... and a gun. Like a gun's going to do any good against the likes of Ultron, Doctor Doom, Iron Man or any other super villain.

Re: Captain America's new look via Alex Ross
October 11, 2007 03:38PM
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Any gun that would would be in the lethal ordinance category and they already did a storyarc where Cap was without his shield and had to use a gun to kill a terrorist who was strafing a crowd with a machine gun and not only felt agony over having had to shoot someone to death but the fear and negative reaction from around the world from people because he used a gun. Cap isn't about guns, he's about ideals and good examples and proving you don't need guns and brutality to make your point or change the world, and this new cap isn't Cap, just Punisher 2.0

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Re: Captain America's new look via Alex Ross
October 11, 2007 04:38PM
It makes me think Cap's suit is not stretch fabric anymore. It's metallic.
Re: Captain America's new look via Alex Ross
October 11, 2007 07:00PM
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I don't think the original Cap's suit was ever stretch fabric, but ultra-fine chainmail instead. He's occasionally had more heavily armored outfits but I don't think he's ever worn anything less protective except as rare one-shot events due to circumstances.

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Re: Captain America's new look via Alex Ross
October 11, 2007 09:40PM
Punstarr:

At least he's using a .45, rather than one of those POS Berettas...:-)

Mike Garrity
Re: Captain America's new look via Alex Ross
October 12, 2007 07:55AM
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It's not Steve Rogers as captain america, so it makes sense that the new cap [psst it's winter soldier/bucky guys...] would use different methods.

I don't see why anyone's getting into a twist over this one. in a year Rogers will be back and Cap will go back to the old look. Let's look at the forrest for the trees on this one...

Re: Captain America's new look via Alex Ross
October 12, 2007 08:54AM
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I have to quote this, because I really think it hits the nail on the head for all the naysayers out there...

Quote

<P>
- NRAMA: And while we're on the elements of the costume - and a knife and gun? You're not saying who this is, but still - is "Cap" issued those weapons, or does he bring them with him?
<P>
- EB: They're issued to him. But who issues them? People think they know everything that's going to happen or what's coming up... but they don't. And just because he's got a gun, does that mean he's going to be blowing people's heads off? Not necessarily. Cops carry guns, as do soldiers. A modern super-soldier might, as well. It's just another tool in the arsenal.
<P>
- NRAMA: Well, theoretically you can have Cap use the gun to shoot the weapons out of his enemies' hands or to split a rope and have a sandbag fall on their head, but guns and knives are offensive, violent weapons by nature. Handguns are created specifically to use on other humans, for example.
<P>
What would you say to those who might say (though according to our poll, they'd be a minority) that a handgun and knife isn't consistent with the symbolic nature of a Captain America in the Marvel Universe?
<P>
- EB: I would tell them to read the comic and not speculate... but that wouldn't really do any good, would it?
<P>
- NRAMA: Are you new around here?
<P>
- EB: [laughs] Right. I don't think the iconic or symbolic nature of a superhero is as fragile as some might think. Icons, in general, are pretty elastic and tend to weather change pretty well. I don't think having a new Cap who happens to carry a firearm and a combat knife is that big a deal or damages the nature of the icon. But that's just me, and like I said, this is part of a story as far as I'm concerned, not a stunt or event or gimmick. I know that most PR tends to come across like stunts or gimmicks, but I'm a writer, not a publicist, so all I care about is my story and my characters.
<P>
Plus, Cap carried guns plenty in World War II and has used them here and there since coming out of the ice, too, so again, it just doesn't seem like an outrage to me. As I've said many times, though, I'm much more in tune with Steranko's version of Cap than the softer "Cap never killed a Nazi in WW2" version that came along in the late '80s or thereabouts. I don't think any soldier who's a decent person enjoys killing, mind you, and I'm not saying Cap -- this Cap or Steve Rogers -- enjoys shooting people, but it's the burden of war. And in the Marvel Universe, Cap fought in more war than most soldiers did.
<P>
- NRAMA: Have you given any thoughts to what could be interpreted as the symbolism of that change? America's symbol needing these tools to fight his fight in 2007?
<P>
- EB: Well, to me, symbolism is usually inferred by the viewer or reader, moreso than something intended consciously by the artist or writer. It's the things that are there whether we intend them to be or not.
<P>
So, I really don't spend much time speculating about symbolism. Everyone will see different things for different reasons and that's fine. That's how it should be, I think. Just as Cap has always had different camps saying what he should and shouldn't stand for, some people will shrug off a Cap with a gun, and others will read stuff into it and get upset. It's the nature of the beast and if you worry too much about it, you won't get much work done, and I've got a lot of story to write for this book, still.





Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 10/12/2007 09:03AM by capocastillo.
Re: Captain America's new look via Alex Ross
October 12, 2007 10:10AM
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Quote

- EB: [laughs] Right. I don't think the iconic or symbolic nature of a superhero is as fragile as some might think. Icons, in general, are pretty elastic and tend to weather change pretty well. I don't think having a new Cap who happens to carry a firearm and a combat knife is that big a deal or damages the nature of the icon. But that's just me, and like I said, this is part of a story as far as I'm concerned, not a stunt or event or gimmick. I know that most PR tends to come across like stunts or gimmicks, but I'm a writer, not a publicist, so all I care about is my story and my characters.

I can't disagree more. That's like saying "Oh, don't worry. Times change. In 20 years it won't seem unusual to see Superman carrying around a machine gun and covered with bandoleers of ammo... he's got to update himself to the modern times, after all". I feel that it does hurt the icon, because if kids in the Marvel U see Captain America carrying a gun, they'll think it's ok to carry a gun. Guns have never been a part of Captain America in the comics. They may be a part of his history, but it's never been a part of his SOP... when he has used guns in the past comics it's seemed odd and uncommon... even wrong. He's got one of the most powerful melee and throwing weapons in the entire Marvel Universe... he doesn't NEED a gun, and that's the point. It's being put in there to enhance the "coolness factor" of Cap (mostly to the younger audience), and using a gun to do that is wrong on so many levels.

Re: Captain America's new look via Alex Ross
October 12, 2007 11:29AM
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From reading that it's pretty clear that they're saying the new Cap isn't a hero, he's just another paid soldier on a payroll with some higher up telling him what to do and what's right rather than being a free man making his own decisions. A license to kill just isn't something anyone called a hero should have, and as I think I mentioned earlier while I acknowledge the original Cap carried guns and knives and killed during WWII that was acceptable because he was a soldier, once he was recovered the war was over and he was a free agent and as a free agent no longer had the right or desire to kill anyone. If anything he likely was haunted like many soldiers by those he had to kill and while he wanted to continue putting his skills to use benefiting everyone he refused to kill again because of those memories. I can only remember two cases where he directly killed someone after he was freed from the ice (that wasn't a vampire or somesuch), the one was the ULTIMATUM agent he shot that was straffing a crowd with automatic weapons fire, the other was the Red Skull when he was draining power and knowledge from Galactus's ship during the period he had the Adolph Hitler Cosmic Cube, and both had terrible repercussions for him.

It's also on the ironic side that someone seeking to justify outfitting the new Cap with guns and knives and probably other weapons to be more 'modern' ends up pointing to his WWII career 60 years ago to validate it. If they want him with updated gear they should outfit him with Tasers, Pepper Spray, and other non-lethal ordinance as befits his 'no-killing' nature.

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(Captain) America and Guns, hmmmm
October 12, 2007 11:39AM
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A guy who is supposed to epitomize American values that carries a gun.

So, what exactly is wrong with this image?

Now, if it was Union Jack carrying a gun that would be a pro... blem.... oh, UJ did carry a gun didn't he?

Ah well, these are the problems we have to put up with when you Yanks write fiction. ;-)

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Re: (Captain) America and Guns, hmmmm
October 12, 2007 11:57AM
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American Ideals, not necessarily American Values, after all we thought it was quite okay to lock up americans because they had the wrong ancestors during wartime at one point, or that it was quite okay to ship enough americans into Hawaii until they outnumbered the population enough to vote it in as a new state. Definitely not compatible with american ideals.

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Re: Captain America's new look via Alex Ross
October 12, 2007 12:16PM
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It's not Steve Rogers so it's a giant leap of logic to assume this cap has a non-killing nature at all. Not that Rogers himself ever had a non-killing nature which is pretty much something that only developed in the 80's anyways. The 70's cap acknowledged when it's necessary to kill.

Further, just because he has a gun doesn't mean he'll be using it to waste fools, just as brubaker said initially. Decry the gun all you want, but the writer explicitly said he's not going to be all punisher with it, so interpreting that way is deliberately ignoring what the writer has explained.

Re: (Captain) America and Guns, hmmmm
October 12, 2007 12:17PM
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Cops use guns all the time.

Re: Captain America's new look via Alex Ross
October 12, 2007 12:19PM
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[forum.newsarama.com]

Here's the full article. The design including knife & gun has nothing to do with 'coolness' factor and everything to do with the identity of the new cap.

Nothing pisses me off more when people just assume things as fact.

Re: (Captain) America and Guns, hmmmm
October 12, 2007 01:08PM
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Cap's not a cop though, he's supposed to represent the ideals that too often get ignored or trampled beneath laws that by their very nature can't be fair all the time and why it's gone from being the justice system to the legal system, because a justice system doesn't let a killer out because of a technicality.

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Re: Captain America's new look via Alex Ross
October 12, 2007 02:13PM
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capocastillo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> [forum.newsarama.com]
>
>
> Here's the full article. The design including
> knife & gun has nothing to do with 'coolness'
> factor and everything to do with the identity of
> the new cap.

You can believe that if you want, man... but I'm just as entitled to my beliefs. I believe they added a gun to appeal to the younger masses who are endeared to characters such as the Punisher. It's the -exact- same reason why in the 90s you saw characters like the Hulk and Wolverine who -don't need guns- brandishing firearms bigger than their arms.

> Nothing pisses me off more when people just assume
> things as fact.

Nothing pisses me off more than when people blindly take what the company tells you at face value... as I said, we're going to have to agree to disagree.

Besides, if you read what I stated earlier, I specifically said that I'm -not assuming anything-, just voicing my fears. You're awfully quick to condemn anyone who doesn't agree with you, capo.





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/12/2007 02:15PM by Punstarr.
Re: Captain America's new look via Alex Ross
October 12, 2007 02:39PM
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Alex Ross isn't the company, he's a freelancer who designed the new cap and decries almost anything that happened comics wise in the 90's.

And i'm no more quick to condemn others as others are quick to condemn anything that has changed in comics since 1982.

Quote

I can't disagree more. That's like saying "Oh, don't worry. Times change. In 20 years it won't seem unusual to see Superman carrying around a machine gun and covered with bandoleers of ammo... he's got to update himself to the modern times, after all". I feel that it does hurt the icon, because if kids in the Marvel U see Captain America carrying a gun, they'll think it's ok to carry a gun. Guns have never been a part of Captain America in the comics. They may be a part of his history, but it's never been a part of his SOP... when he has used guns in the past comics it's seemed odd and uncommon... even wrong. He's got one of the most powerful melee and throwing weapons in the entire Marvel Universe... he doesn't NEED a gun, and that's the point. It's being put in there to enhance the "coolness factor" of Cap (mostly to the younger audience), and using a gun to do that is wrong on so many levels.

There's nothing in that statement that doesn't say in one single iota that you weren't assuming anything. in fact the entire statement is an assumption that 1) this cap is the same as the old cap that didn't use guns, 2) that even in stories where the old cap used guns, you have a problem accepting it, 3) that just because he has an unbreakable shield there couldn't possibly be a reason he'd need a gun, and 4) that the gun's purpose is to make cap's costume cool.





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/12/2007 02:47PM by capocastillo.

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