A Question about Skeletons

So I've been thinking about it for a while, but why exactly does someone like Wolverine get listed as gaining body armor to a degree because of the adamantium in his bones? I mean he doesn't have an exo-skeleton, he's got an endo-skeleton, so the adamantium shouldn't give him any protection at all, except against headwounds, and even then that's if an attack doesn't hit one of the few openings like eye sockets or ears to penetrate to the brain. If anything having such unbreakable bones would result in MORE damage as in combat his tissues are beaten against such an inflexible substance.

The only part that seems to make sense is that he could strike for more damage since the harder and denser metal gives him more striking power. Also while part of what limits human strength and lifting capacity is our bones would having such an enhanced skeleton grant the ability to access more of what muscles are capable of, hence allowing for a higher strength, or would the connective tissue that connects the muscles to the bones prove unable to handle the demand.

"A shared universe, like any fictional construct, hinges on suspension of disbelief. When continuity is tossed away, it tatters the construct. Undermines it."

-- Peter David

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Nightmask Character Sheet

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Paragon Character Sheet

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Complete list of my characters various forum URLs, over 30 to enjoy!

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Godiva Character Sheet

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Seraphim Character Sheet

[www.furaffinity.net] Art by Marvel Comic's artist Rusty Haller!

[www.furaffinity.net] Artist/writer/Creator of The Extinctioners Independent super-hero comic!

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Sappho Character Sheet

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Cornucopia Character Sheet

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Nightmares of Futures Past Ongoing Story

[www.classicmarvel.com] - There is no such thing as too powerful Forum Thread

Because other than bruises, it's unlikely he's going to take as much danage where there are bones in the way of an attack. Example: Someone slashes a katana across a regular guy's chest... it slices right through his flesh, muscle and ribs to hit his heart and/or lungs. With Wolverine, it slices through flesh and muscle but stops at the ribs, thus providing damage protection. Granted, a piercing attack to the chest has a less likely chance of being stopped by adamantium ribs, but rather than figure out every nuance and chance to hit with what type of attack vs each section of the body, they simplified it by giving general protection from damage.

Feh.. I just give Wolvie and other folks with Adamantium laced skeletons (like Bullseye & Sabertooth in our tabletop game) a CS reduction for damage from Blunt or Force type attacks... Edged & Shooting work as per normal against 'em...

But that's just me :P

Quack, damn you...

I still don't see where that would give them any protection from any attacks, other than ensuring that an attack that would break normal bones (or even more abnormal bones like those required by Thor or the Hulk to fully utilize their vast strength) doesn't. All it does is ensure that when struck the (relatively) softer tissues will press up against an unyielding surface, ensuring full damage from the attack.

"A shared universe, like any fictional construct, hinges on suspension of disbelief. When continuity is tossed away, it tatters the construct. Undermines it."

-- Peter David

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Nightmask Character Sheet

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Paragon Character Sheet

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Complete list of my characters various forum URLs, over 30 to enjoy!

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Godiva Character Sheet

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Seraphim Character Sheet

[www.furaffinity.net] Art by Marvel Comic's artist Rusty Haller!

[www.furaffinity.net] Artist/writer/Creator of The Extinctioners Independent super-hero comic!

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Sappho Character Sheet

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Cornucopia Character Sheet

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Nightmares of Futures Past Ongoing Story

[www.classicmarvel.com] - There is no such thing as too powerful Forum Thread

I have to say that's very flawed reasoning. If your normal bones provide no protection from blunt attacks (or any other for that matter), making them tougher isn't going to give you any more defense than you had before. Someone slashes me with a sword and I unthinkingly block with my arm it's going to cut me down to the bone whether my bones are calcium or adamantium. Same goes with my ribs, the bones are going to give the same protection no matter what they're made of. The only difference is with the adamantium bones I at least don't have to worry about Silver Samurai slicing my arm off when I block his sword with it, but I still take full damage otherwise.

The only way for adamantium or anything else to reduce or prevent injury for an organic creature is the same way it does for Ultron, it has to be worn on the outside as body armor. If it's not between the attack and your actual body it's not going to protect you. I think too many look at Wolverine and from part of the need to pump him up they add magical qualities to his special skeleton it doesn't have, as if having bones that won't break and letting you inflict more damage when you punch someone isn't a sometimes considerable advantage all its own.

"A shared universe, like any fictional construct, hinges on suspension of disbelief. When continuity is tossed away, it tatters the construct. Undermines it."

-- Peter David

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Nightmask Character Sheet

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Paragon Character Sheet

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Complete list of my characters various forum URLs, over 30 to enjoy!

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Godiva Character Sheet

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Seraphim Character Sheet

[www.furaffinity.net] Art by Marvel Comic's artist Rusty Haller!

[www.furaffinity.net] Artist/writer/Creator of The Extinctioners Independent super-hero comic!

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Sappho Character Sheet

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Cornucopia Character Sheet

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Nightmares of Futures Past Ongoing Story

[www.classicmarvel.com] - There is no such thing as too powerful Forum Thread

Didn't say there was any reasoning to it... I'm not trying to inject any sort of reality or science to explain or defend my approach. I did it that way because I felt like it, not from some fanboy need to pump Wolvie up (I actually don't much care for him).

It's not scientific, but it's interesting, and it allows those with Adamantium-laced bones to endure a little more physical punishment than they otherwise might, without being excessive or giving them a generic Body Armor rating...

Of course, I don't give Wolvie the ungodly Regeneration rank I've seen in some writeups for him...

The CS benefit I grant vs. Blunt/Force attacks for abnormally strong bones tops out at -3CS damage reduction, and generally only applies vs. assaults of up to Remarkable or Incredible rank, maximum. Beyond that, normal damage ensues.

Seems to work well enough for our games..;)

Quack, damn you...

It's not flawed at all... it's a matter of whether the attack succeeds in damaging the parts of the body that -really- matter in terms of hit points... internal organs. If the metal ribs stop an attack from slicing through the bone and cutting into the lungs and heart, I'd say that counts as damage protection.

Because the bones (at least the ribs and skull) still provide a barrier, protecting the 3 most vital organs in the body: the brain, lungs and heart.

Which is still irrelevant as nearly all attacks are such that the bones aren't going to do anything to stop or reduce damage to a person. Ribs compress, crushing the organs beneath them (which is why whether your ribs stay intact or ground to powder they don't do you any good when a car parks on top of your chest), and even indestructable they do no more to reduce the transferral of damaging effects to the internal organs than breakable bones do.

To say that somehow just by being unbreakable they can reduce damage to said organs just isn't reasonable. I smash someone in the chest with a lead pipe he's going to take the same general damage with calcium bones or metal ones, he just doesn't have to worry about splintered bones adding more damage after the fact.

"A shared universe, like any fictional construct, hinges on suspension of disbelief. When continuity is tossed away, it tatters the construct. Undermines it."

-- Peter David

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Nightmask Character Sheet

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Paragon Character Sheet

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Complete list of my characters various forum URLs, over 30 to enjoy!

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Godiva Character Sheet

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Seraphim Character Sheet

[www.furaffinity.net] Art by Marvel Comic's artist Rusty Haller!

[www.furaffinity.net] Artist/writer/Creator of The Extinctioners Independent super-hero comic!

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Sappho Character Sheet

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Cornucopia Character Sheet

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Nightmares of Futures Past Ongoing Story

[www.classicmarvel.com] - There is no such thing as too powerful Forum Thread

You seem to have a low opinion of what a bone can take, and while it's true they have trouble handling crushing damage an edged attack slides over standard bone as easily as anything else. Unless you're using a sawblade a slicing attack isn't going to cut through rib bones no matter whether they're regular bone or something more durable. Plus if the attack goes between them then they're again quite irrelevant to determining how much damage a person takes.

Since the RPG itself doesn't consider things like critical hits or allow for bones to break under general rules (and how often do you see ANY hero end up with broken bones that's superhuman, even a minor one?), unless I guess someone's intentionally attempting to do so and would still require some kind of house ruling, you can't really consider indestructable bones granting any kind of damage-reduction ability beyond simply ensuring attacks that would break conventional bones along with the rest of the damage that they cause don't cause damage to the one with indestructable bones. I don't even allow for it with my character Paragon, and she's intentionally on the extra tough side and specifically includes Unearthly material strength bones.

"A shared universe, like any fictional construct, hinges on suspension of disbelief. When continuity is tossed away, it tatters the construct. Undermines it."

-- Peter David

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Nightmask Character Sheet

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Paragon Character Sheet

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Complete list of my characters various forum URLs, over 30 to enjoy!

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Godiva Character Sheet

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Seraphim Character Sheet

[www.furaffinity.net] Art by Marvel Comic's artist Rusty Haller!

[www.furaffinity.net] Artist/writer/Creator of The Extinctioners Independent super-hero comic!

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Sappho Character Sheet

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Cornucopia Character Sheet

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Nightmares of Futures Past Ongoing Story

[www.classicmarvel.com] - There is no such thing as too powerful Forum Thread

Alright, listen... I'm not talking about a car crushing your ribs. I'm talking about a blade in a comic book slashing those ribs. Yes, in real life bone does a better job of protection than in fiction, but it's fiction that we're talking about. A blade wielded by crazy badass cyborg ninja from Saturn in a comic can cut clean through bones to slice and dice a normal guy's heart and lungs... are you with me? Good. But if she tried that slash with Logan, the blade would be... say it with me, stopped before it hit those organs, thus... -preventing damage-.

Giving him overall damage reduction is -far- simpler than figuring out which attacks get through based on which exact part of the body they hit, cross indexed with the type of attack. Do you think a GM wants to deal with that crap? No! So it's been simplified.





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/05/2007 10:31AM by Punstarr.

Yes you have a good point Nightmask his Bones maybe enhanced but it should not give him Body armour.The Adamantium does not protect vital organs.

Part of the damage a body incurrs from physical trauma is by why of limbs being severed and bone being broken and splintering into other tissue and organs. Wolvies bones stop the trauma at the point of the bone, which cannot be severed and doesn't allow thedamage to continue on through more flesh.

Of course, as the recent WWH: X-Men thoughtfully demonstrated, organs can still ber bounced around and jellified by significant force.

And organs can be reached by technical attacks. Thus, I'd certainy allow a called-shot to by pass the "armour" on a Yellow hit.

In the end, its comicbooks. And insofar as one campaign goes, it is whatever flies with you and yours. If there is something you don't like, change it. It doesn't require everyone else to embrace the idea.

------------------------------------------------
Powersurge (history, pics) [www.classicmarvel.com]

------------------------------------------------
Morningstar (campaign journal) [www.classicmarvel.com]

------------------------------------------------

"You just decided *all by yourselves* that you are the Earth's protectors. And that you, and *only* you, not your teammates or family, are trustworthy enough to include in the process..."

T'Challa, The New Avengers: Illuminati 1

I think what noone is taking into consideration is the damage to bones themselves.

Part of the overall damage taken is what damage is caused over the entire body. There is a portion of Wolverine's body that cannot be damaged, his skeleton.

In boxing, many fighters will focus on body shots, and damage the midsection. By bruising or fracturing ribs you can put a person in significant amounts of pain, labor their breathing, and possibly cause injury to organs from from puncture due to fractures and breaks.

This does not happen in the case of an unbreakable skeleton, thus the limited resistance to blunt/edged trauma.

Wolvies Adamantium covers his Bones only,you can destroy his Muscle and Skin and internal organs.The Bones are somewhat over rated.I liked Thor the Reigning series were Thor is fighting Wolverine and Vaporizes Wolverine with the Odin Force.So much for unbreakable Bones,Wolvie is great at fighting the ninjas and such but againist a powerful force blast its over.Of coarse powersurge already said that,Wolverine is overated againist Energy based attacks.

Wolverine's damage reduction also doesn't apply to energy attacks, so I don't see what your example has to do with the discussion at hand.

Point is that he does not have any body armour againist energy based attacks.Sure he has some if someone might hit him with a baseball bat over the Head.(:!P)

that's what this whole thread is about...

I know that is why I am flapping my Gums Cap.:!)-D