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Mjolnir
Posted by Killer B
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What I want to know is would Mjolnir do normal damage vs. Superman or would it inflict extra damage due to Supes' weakness to magic?
I need to know this before I can play a game that involves the both of them. Post Edited (10-22-04 10:29) "It rubs the lotion on it's skin or else it gets the hose again."
Is it being smashed into Supes? If so then it should inflict standard blunt damage.
The lightning bolt should do standard electricity damage. The Mystical Energy Blast would inflict magical damage and Supes' vulnerability to magic would take affect. == Quidquid latine dictum sit altum viditur. (Translation: Everything said in Latin sounds profound.)
I respectfully disagree, MIC_Rulz.
Mjolnir is one of the most magical weapons in the MU. It's made of Uru, a mystical material. Superman's weakness towards magic should apply to being smacked with it (i.e. Supes should be treated as having 0 body resistance). Since the lightning blasts it emits are also magical (in that they're generated magically, not in the same way that, say, a regular thunderstorm's lightning bolts are), those should scorch him as readily as they would Jimmy Olsen. --------------------- Be Ex/20 to one another!
it depends on who's writing it. Avengers/JLA had him going a couple of rounds with thor, but i'm not sure he was using the Hammer at that point.
if hard pressed i would say Mjolnir would do damage to Supes bypassing his invulnerability. However, as shown in JLA/Avengers, Supes stats (stre, end, health) would all remain normal so he could block the hammer like he did in the comics. I do have to say that that was one of the most faithful dipictions i've ever seen so far.
Okay, as far as I understood it, the lightning Thor generates from the hammer is mystically manipulated and not mystic itself.
Superman has no resistance to magic anyway under the rules of True Invulnerability. If a magical attack hit Superman, whether it be an Eldritch bolt or a weapon such as Mjolnir, would the attack inflict a +CS to damage vs. Supes since he has a weakness to magic? "It rubs the lotion on it's skin or else it gets the hose again."
Dr Archeville wrote:
> I respectfully disagree, MIC_Rulz. > Mjolnir is one of the most magical weapons in the MU. > It's made of Uru, a mystical material. Superman's weakness > towards magic should apply to being smacked with it > (i.e. Supes should be treated as having 0 body resistance). > Since the lightning blasts it emits are also magical (in that > they're generated magically, not in the same way that, say, a > regular thunderstorm's lightning bolts are), those should > scorch him as readily as they would Jimmy Olsen. > I was going by the listed stats that are on this site which contain a specific line for magical damage. The joy of this game is the ability to handle such things. If someone wishes to set all of the various damages that Thor's hammer can inflict to only do magical damage that's fine and I hope the campaign works great for them. The differing house-rules is great to have listed so others can take what they like best and work with that. If I use him in my campaigns I plan to have him inflict the various damages as various damages. So the Blunt damage listed will inflict standard physical and so on. (Edited a long sentence.) Post Edited (10-22-04 12:55) == Quidquid latine dictum sit altum viditur. (Translation: Everything said in Latin sounds profound.)
Killer B wrote:
> If a magical attack hit Superman, whether it be an Eldritch > bolt or a weapon such as Mjolnir, would the attack inflict a > +CS to damage vs. Supes since he has a weakness to magic? > The stats on this site list that he does take extra damage from magical attacks:
== Quidquid latine dictum sit altum viditur. (Translation: Everything said in Latin sounds profound.)
Superman, duck!
With his IN Fighting and Acrobatics, he can Evade with AM ability. I hope he uses all of it. Unfortunately for him it will be difficult to Evade the 3 per turn that Thor is capable of swinging. With a Fighting score of UN Thor can easily get 3 attacks per turn. He could have Supes KO'd in the first round. I hope nobody signs up for that pay-per-view. It'd hardly be worth it. Speaking of Evading, I thought Superman could fly really fast? The stats on this site only list him at 600 MPH (UN air speed.) That seems lots slower than a speeding bullet. == Quidquid latine dictum sit altum viditur. (Translation: Everything said in Latin sounds profound.)
Even by the stats on this site, "magical attack" can include being whopped with Mjolnir, since it's a magical item and is being used to attack him. It can also include magically-generated attacks, like the lightning from Mjolnir, or a lightning bolt spell cast by Dr. Strange. The write-up does not specifically say "Being attacked by pure magical energy," it says "magical attacks," which is as broad a category as "mutant power attacks" or "high tech powers". Since Mjolnir's made of a mystical material & has several magical enchantments on it, being hit with it should, by most accounts, be considered a "magical attack."
I have Mjolnir doing magical and blunt damage. No, not ShX/150 Blunt and ShX/150 Magic, not even Mn/75 Blunt and Mn/75 Magical, but the damage he does is both blunt and magical, meaning anyone with a weaknes to magical attacks (like Supes) will have that weakness come in to play if he's hit by it. Same goes for Surutr's sword (though that's edged & magical, not blunt & magical). In Kingdom Come, Wonder Woman's Hephaestus-forged sword cut Supes as easily as it would anyone else. I'd like to know where the "+1 CS" bit came from, though -- Supes isn't affectd any longer by magical effects than any normal human. And, yes, the stats are off -- Supes routinely presses thousands of tons, which is far more than Un/100 Strength. But that's a whole 'nother kettle of fish.... Random Trivia: Bullet speeds vary between 900 and 1,500 meters/second. Post Edited (10-22-04 15:00) --------------------- Be Ex/20 to one another!
Dr Archeville wrote:
> I have Mjolnir doing magical and blunt damage. No, not ShX/150 > Blunt and ShX/150 Magic, not even Mn/75 Blunt and Mn/75 > Magical, but the damage he does is both blunt and magical, > meaning anyone with a weaknes to magical attacks (like Supes) > will have that weakness come in to play if he's hit by it. > Same goes for Surutr's sword (though that's edged & magical, > not blunt & magical). In Kingdom Come, Wonder Woman's > Hephaestus-forged sword cut Supes as easily as it would anyone > else. > How does it work against normal body armor? Hulk has MN (75) armor. Does he block 75 of it, or none of it? > Random Trivia: Bullet speeds vary between 900 and 1,500 > meters/second. > I made up a little chart some time ago: Projectile Speed Ranks It may help somebody out. == Quidquid latine dictum sit altum viditur. (Translation: Everything said in Latin sounds profound.)
Dr Archeville wrote:
> In Kingdom Come, Wonder Woman's > Hephaestus-forged sword cut Supes as easily as it would anyone > else. > > I'd like to know where the "+1 CS" bit came from, though -- > Supes isn't affectd any longer by magical effects than any > normal human. > > And, yes, the stats are off -- Supes routinely presses > thousands of tons, which is far more than Un/100 Strength. But > that's a whole 'nother kettle of fish.... > Random Trivia: Bullet speeds vary between 900 and 1,500 > meters/second. > I agree whole-heartedly with all of this. The way I understand it, magic merely ignores Superman's awesome resistances. IOW, Superman is insanely resistant to "mundane" damage: hitting a person in the neck with an axe decapitates them while Superman scoffs at the now broken axe. But, make the axe magical and Superman is AS vulnerable as a normal human. Not "more" vulnerable..."as" vulnerable. That is my understanding of it. Using the bullet reference as a platform to leap into a tangent: I don't care how good a fighter Thor is. If Superman was in "save-the-world-at-any-cost" mode and not "fluffy-kitten-boyscout-hug-your-mommy" mode Thor literally wouldn't even see what hit him. As far as speedsters go, you have Team Speedforce (Barry Allen, et al, etc.) and then Superman and then everyone else (on Earth at least). So yeah, I would have Mjolnir do +1CS Blunt Damage to Superman that he could NOT resist, IOW, he would take the full +1CS to his Health. But, Thor really shouldn't be able to handle a guy who can move at thousands of miles an hour, stop and turn on a dime, has distance weapons, is stronger than him, etc. Now, if Marvel actually depicted Thor as something worthy of the title god, well than... ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Build a man a fire and he will be warm for a night. Set a man on fire, and he will be warm the rest of his life
Hulk's body resistance works normally, same as Iron Man's armor or Thing's rocky hide or Collossus's osmium steel form. None of them are particularly weak or strong agaisnt magic, so all that really matters in their case is how hard they're being hit.
That's always been my understanding, too, though his Strength's also bupkis against breaking down magically-barred things. Presumably, a magical disease or poison (one created by or augmented by magic) would affect him as readily as it would anyone else with a Rm/30 Endurance (which is what he'd have w/out all his powers -- he's no slouch). --------------------- Be Ex/20 to one another!
I think that in general, a magical weapon doesn't cause magical damage. I don't know the specifics of Mjolnir, but I got the impression that the magic is bound in the creation of the item and holding it together. The magic involved in the creation gives it it's material strength.
So, when someone is struck with it, they are being hit by an object of material strength X and so take damage. Nothing particularly magical about the end effect. This is all in general. Maybe there is something special about Mjolnir in that it causes magical damage. Maybe there is something special about Superman in that anything that smacks of magic defeats his Invulnerability/Resistance. In MSH, magical attacks usually attack the Psyche. I don't like the idea of Eldrich Bolts bypassing Body Armor or True Invulnerability as defined in the UPB. If they cause direct damage to the body, then Body Armor or True Invulnerablity should handle it. That's what it's for. If it attacks the Psyche or Intuition, that's not what it's for. Denzil
I see everybody's reasoning and arguments, but I don't think Mjolnir should bypass Superman's body armor. IMO it does physical damage. Magical damage Supes has a problem with.
MSH Classic RPG System [rivendell.fortunecity.com]
That's exactly it.
That's how I've done it, too -- magic isn't an energy type, it's an energy source. I.e., someone has powers b/c of magic, just as the X-Men have powers b/c they're mutants & Iron Man's armor has all those powers b/c of super-science. A blast of "magical energy" can be as all-encompassing as a blast of "mutant energy" or "Super-science energy." All other things being equal, a magical blast will be as effective at harming, say, Colossus as one of IM's repulsor blasts's would. Why should a magical blast bypass Body Armor if it doesn't bypass the material strength of normal items? Standing behind a steel door is a good defense from energy blasts (be they magical or not), why should taking the door and molding it into the form of body armor suddenly make it wholly ineffective against a magical blast? Then again, maybe the idea behind magical blasts attacking the Psyche is in line with Mayfair's DC Heroes RPG, where characters had a set of physical, mental, and spiritual stats, and one attack stat, one effect stat, and one resistance stat for each (MSH analogy: Fighting and Agility are physical attack stats, Strength is the physical effect stat, Endurance is the physical resistance stat). If that's the case, though, magical attacks shouldn't do Health damage (which is calculated frrom your physical stats), but form some sort of mental or spiritual health score. --------------------- Be Ex/20 to one another!
In DCH Superman's weakness to magic is described as Loss Vulnerability.
He has zero resistance v. magic. His Strength would be zero v. punching a mystical barrier as well, but he would not lose health bashing his fist into something that he cannot penetrate. There are no rules in DCH or MSH for characters losing health if they punch a wall, armor , or a forcefield with a rank higher than their Strength rank. However, in MSH if he charged into it then he would be take rebound damage equal to his own Endurance or Body Armor rank, whichever is highest, without resistance. But if it were a barrier constructed of mystical blades and he, not knowing that they were of magical construction, tried to punch through it, not only would he not be able to damage the barrier, but he would lose health. His flesh would be cut open from the attack. The damage would be equivalent to the damage rating of the material as if the barrier had attacked him. Thor swinging Mjolnir with Unearthly might would be slugging Superman with enough force so that Supes takes the full Shift-X damage, no defense. If Thor is not wearing the Belt of Strength (by the way, is it just a given in the comics that he wears it all of the time?) then Supes takes Unearthly damage with no defense. In the DCH character writeups that I have, only Superman has the Loss Vulnerability to Magic. In DCH rules mystical attacks are resisted by the character's Spirit. No amount of body armor or force field adds to that resistance value. Superman's Spirit would be treated as zero due to Loss Vulnerability. In MSH rules body armor is useless v. mystical attacks but forcefields are proof against mystical attacks. Weapons of mystical construct such as Mjolnir, Dragonfang, and the weapons of the Wrecking Crew DO NOT count as mystical attacks against Body Armor. Therefore Body Armor protects at full rank. Hulk can take a hit from Mjolnir and lose 25 or 75 health; Superman loses 100 or 150. In FOOM's most sincere proclaimation, True Invulnerability is a power based upon Kryptonian and Daxamitian physiologies. It does not belong in the Marvel Universe. If you have Kryptonians and Daxamitians flying around in your Marvel Universe then Superman should have Unearthly T.I.. But it is still useless v. Mjolnir, Dr. Strange, Valkyrie's Dragonfang, The Wrecking Crew, etc.,.
Dr Archeville wrote:
> > > > That's exactly it. Okay, I think I understand what you mean now, and agree with almost everything you're saying. I think that any lightning bolts Mjolnir (how do you pronounce that? Too many consonants!) shoots are magical in source and Superman would be vulnerable to them. The only thing I'm hung up on is a physical smack from the hammer. It's enchanted, but is the damage considered magical? I think the question would be answered this way: If someone with Remarkable strength hits someone with Mjolnir, how much damage does it do? If there is an active magical field that causes Unearthly damage upon a strike, regardless of the wielder's strength, then I would consider the damage magical. If not, then I would consider the magic enchantment passive in this case, simply setting the material strength. I think what you're arguing is the magic of the hammer, passive or not, is sort of wrapped around the hammer and this aura allows penetration of Superman's Invulnerablilty. I suppose I can accept that in Superman's special case (or any other Kryptonian?), but would normally not consider the hammer's attack as magical. If I understand correctly, we are in agreement everywhere else. Then again, someone could add house rules to where attacks could be armor peircing, and armor/defense could be considered hardened vs armor piercing attacks. > > > > Then again, maybe the idea behind magical blasts attacking the > Psyche is in line with Mayfair's DC Heroes RPG, where > characters had a set of physical, mental, and spiritual stats, > and one attack stat, one effect stat, and one resistance stat > for each (MSH analogy: Fighting and Agility are physical attack > stats, Strength is the physical effect stat, Endurance is the > physical resistance stat). If that's the case, though, magical > attacks shouldn't do Health damage (which is calculated frrom > your physical stats), but form some sort of mental or spiritual > health score. > I agree. If an attack causes damage to health, then Body Resistance/Armor applies. A mental attack that causes health loss isn't reallly a mental attack, but a physical one with a mental "source" (as you mentioned above...uh well I guess I snipped that). Magical "attacks" that don't cause physical damage, like illusions, mind control, etc, should affect the willpower(Psyche) or Intuition in the case of emotional attacks. Simple stunning attacks would also target the Psyche since they do no physical damage. Denzil Post Edited (10-23-04 23:02)
FOOM wrote:
> In FOOM's most sincere proclaimation, True Invulnerability is a > power based upon Kryptonian and Daxamitian physiologies. It > does not belong in the Marvel Universe. Couldn't something similar be in the Marvel universe? It would come from a completely different source, but I can see body armor/resistance taken one step further to where any type of physical damage can be resisted (swallowed acid, paralyitic gas breathed in, etc). Denzil
Mjolnir = Myol' neer And, as an added bonus -- Yggdrasill = Ig' drah-sil (the "ll" at the end are just like the Welsh "ll" as in "Lloyd")
I've always seen it as a magical attack, no matter who wields it. Damage, though, depends on the Strength of the wielder. If Cap's wielding it, it'll do Rm/30 damage (his Str +1CS, since blunt attacks do up to your Str +1CS damage or the material str of the weapon, whichever's less... if I'm remembering correctly). However, all this means is that the damage it deals is magical, and so bypasses any defenses that're specifically ineffective against magic (like Superman's invulnerability/body resistance). To use a D&D analgoy (I'm fairly certain most everyone here is familiar with at least one of the editions of Dungeons & Dragons) -- in AD&D 2nd Ed. terms, Superman can only be harmed by a +1 or better weapon. In D&D 3.0, he's got Damage Reduction 100/+1; in D&D 3.5, he's got Damage Reduction 100/magic (well, maye not 100, but some fairly high number). Mjolnir, in AD&D 2nd Ed., is at least a +1 weapon; in D&D 3.0, Mjolnir's a +5 chaotic dancing ghost touch holy mighty cleaving returning thundering warhammer (per the write-up in 'Deities & Demigods'). --------------------- Be Ex/20 to one another! |
