New stats for Hulk and Thor
Posted by Epyon
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I just thought I'd clarify what is meant by innate aptitude as, I think it was Tanker who made a comment regarding one "learning" innate aptitude.
Innate aptitude is not learned. It is present from the get go... part of the person, and not something a person can acquire. No amount of training or education or experience or performance enhancers will ever turn a mediocre or even above average person into a Mozart or an Einstein or an Ali, because the innate aptitude of such people for their particular calling is simply head and toe above the rest. So, in a way, the Fighting score is like the Reason score, and determines the degree of success a person will enjoy in a particular field. A warrior deity like Thor is naturally going to have an inherent understanding of combat, which would enable him to be a impressive fighter without ANY training or experience, and which would also enable him to pick up, master and improve upon learned techniques that much easier. Other people with a low aptitude might, with time and dedication, be able to pick up all of the skills that a person with a high aptitude could, but it is going to be a long painful process and at the end of it all such a person is still probably going to get beat up by bums on the street. Eg. A person with Feeble Figthing is still a sorry excuse for a fighter even if they've somehow managed to acquire every martial talent the game has to offer. Train them from now till Doomsday, no matter. It's like trying to change one's genetics. A person has what they have. The Feeble fighter with every martial talent will be better than another Feeble Fighter without any martial talents, but fancy techniques aside, they will never be as good as someone with an Excellent aptitude for fighting that has never received any formal training. They simply lack that fundamental, "non-acquireable" quality. As for Cap and Marvel canon; he is one of the preeminent HTH combatants of the MU, but it is canon that the only techniques he has "mastered" are boxing and judo and he is not a consumate martial artist a la Batman. It is his superhuman athleticism (and a bit of training) that enables him to compete with guys like Batman. Is Cap better than Thor or Herc? All else being equal? I highly doubt it. Is Cap worthy of having a fighting score of Amazing? Hell no, IMO. He clearly had NO physical aptitude of any kind prior to the super-soldier serum -- if he had any, it would have shown itself off and he wouldn't have been rejected for military service... during WARTIME -- and all of the super-steroids in the world aren't going to change that to any significant degree... maybe a column shift... ir two if one is feeling generous. I would say that the only reason he has that in the game is because of thoughtless presumption, ie. Cap is max human in all physical areas and Fighting is listed as a physical attribute, therfore Cap must have max. human Figthing. But even moreso, is Cap worthy of possessing ALL of the martial arts talents? Well, does boxing and judo encompass all of the martial talents? No, it doesn't. And no, he isn't. ------------------------------------------------  Powersurge (history, pics) [www.classicmarvel.com]
------------------------------------------------  Morningstar (campaign journal) [www.classicmarvel.com]
------------------------------------------------ "You just decided *all by yourselves* that you are the Earth's protectors. And that you, and *only* you, not your teammates or family, are trustworthy enough to include in the process..." T'Challa, The New Avengers: Illuminati 1
I'd agree that it's somewhat ironic, Nightmask. But do you want to know what is even more ironic? That fact that as far as comic characters go, I prefer Cap to Thor.
Anyway, the reason why the SS Serum could amp Cap's ASE but not his F, is because the ASE attributes are purely physical in nature, while the Figthing rank is more cerebral and intuitive; ultimately having more in common with the RIP attributes. There is no reason to think that increased ASE -- be the source simple physical training, and/or the use of steroids, and/or the use of "super-steroids" -- could do anything other than help one *maximize* one's innate martial aptitude, but that aptitude has to exist to begin with. As for Cap picking things up as he went along; fair enough, but in all honestly the same could be said of ANY hero that has existed within a group setting for any amount of time. However, you simply can't compare **3 months** of boxing and judo, along with a thing or two being picke dup everyt now and then, as time permits, with the type of focused devotion that defines such consumate martial artists as Batman.... who spent *years* mastering HTH combat long before ever doning the Bat-suit and engaging in the time consuming career of crime fighter. Moreover, Bruce Wayne was never a gimp and clearly had that kinesthetic intelligence that Steve Rogers seemingly lacked. This is not to say that I think that Batman is a more formidable HTH combatant than Cap... only that the reason why Cap is so formidable is different than Bat's. With Cap the accent is more on athleticism than martial skill, and this enables him to compete against elite level fighters. With Batman the accent is more on martial skill than athletics, and this enables him to compete against superior athletes. I mean, in all honesty, IF Cap was BOTH the consumate athlete and the consumate martial artist he would clean the floor with Batman, but I'm sure that most will acknowledge that there is no way Cap could ever walk all over Batman. ------------------------------------------------ Powersurge (history, pics) [www.classicmarvel.com]
------------------------------------------------ Morningstar (campaign journal) [www.classicmarvel.com]
------------------------------------------------ "You just decided *all by yourselves* that you are the Earth's protectors. And that you, and *only* you, not your teammates or family, are trustworthy enough to include in the process..." T'Challa, The New Avengers: Illuminati 1
I'd certainly be willing to concede that civet5285.
While physical compotence and physical aptitude do tend to walk hand-in-hand, ie. a naturally high physical aptitude will naturally lead to the developement of a certain degree of physical competence, I can also imagine some scenarios in which this might not be the case.... such as suffering from an illness or disease, or being physically disabled as the result of some accident, or being physical and mentally neglected/abused. Take a chronic asthematic for instance. Remove that affliction and who knows what kind of physical and martial competence might emerge! ------------------------------------------------ Powersurge (history, pics) [www.classicmarvel.com]
------------------------------------------------ Morningstar (campaign journal) [www.classicmarvel.com]
------------------------------------------------ "You just decided *all by yourselves* that you are the Earth's protectors. And that you, and *only* you, not your teammates or family, are trustworthy enough to include in the process..." T'Challa, The New Avengers: Illuminati 1
I get Power’s Point now.....
Cap’n started at PR:04 or TY:06 “Fighting”....... Add all the other stuff and Cap’n gained AM:50 Fighting.... Where as Bat-Man probably started at GD:10 or EX:20 Fighting..... “THEN” he went to Ninja School.... Then you have a God-Guy such as Thor, who probably had EX:20 to RM:30 Fighting.... And all he did was push a Farm Plow at that point in his life.... Many people are probably going to ask; What’s the relevance of the whole debate??......... It’s how the Character will retain their “Fighting” Rank during critical loss and failure..... But now I’m curious.... When it comes to ‘Human’ Characters who had better Innate Aptitude???.... Punisher OR Bat-Man.... Frank Castle’s original stats were: F: AM:50 A: EX:20 S: GD:10 E: EX:20 R: EX:20 I: IN:40 P: IN:40 He is all changed now, reflecting better Agility to easily handle ‘Guns’ on the result table... 
www.TankerAce.com | www.Arcain.com | www.Viper99.com Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/17/2008 11:30PM by TankerAce.
I think ‘PEAK’ Human Fighting going beyond AM:50 seems a little too aggressive without a ‘Power’ or enhanced [ASERIP]..... Or a really impressive collection of Talents....
Even if Humans had an estimated life span of say 5000 to 10,000 years...... I just can’t really envision the default Human Body being able to execute greater than AM:50 Fighting without a weapon of some sort. We only have 2 arms, and 2 legs, and 5 senses, and they don’t really reach too far, and with human frailness a human could make “Fighting” contact on higher Ranks..... But it would have no sheer power behind it, thus it’s useless for a ‘FIGHT’ At AM:50 Fighting I can sort of envision a ‘Normal’ Human having the ability to brawl with an 8 Foot Grizzly Bear, or possibly K.O. a 2000 pound Raging Bull... With only the bare hands (or feet).... So RM:30 to IN:40 Fighting is a good measure for ‘Dealing’ with creatures beyond human speed and strength...... This would be the ‘Professional’..... Such as a Pro Fighter, Rodeo performer, or Bizarre Dojo... With MN:75 Fighting the Grizzly Bear or Bull would get dropped or slammed in a ‘Fierce’ Fight...... And a precision power move can dent or crack ‘Tank’ Armor...... With a ‘Normal’ skeleton... At UN:100 Fighting a ‘Grapple’ or ‘Strike’ would be so precise the Bear or Bull would have tweedy birds flying around the head....
www.TankerAce.com | www.Arcain.com | www.Viper99.com
Not exactly, Tanker.
Th point in my comparison between Cap and Bats was that Cap's superior athleticism, his superior strength and stamina and coordination, make up for a *relative* lack of aptitude and technical know how and allow him to compete at an elite level. We see this in Mixed Martial Arts competition where a far less experienced and/or well trained fighter is nevertheless able to hang with honed veterans by simple virtue of their superior athleticism. In game terms, this is reflected (however poorly) in what Cap's superior ASE stats offer him in terms of health, stamina, resistence to stuns and slams, striking and blocking power, and dodging ability. As for what Figthing rank eack began with; well, it is my opinion that each began with the potential that each ultimately ended up with. Thor for instance has always had Unearthly Fighting, and Batman has always had Amazing Fighting. Both may or may not have had to grow into it to some degree, but from the point of maturity onward they had the Fighting rank they were *born* to have. Even in the case of Cap, it can be argued that he always had an Amazing Figthing rank (if that is what one choses to cleave to), but that certain genetic defects (that would be corrected by the SS Serum) hampered the manifestation of his full potential by X number of Column Shifts. This is based on my other opinion that the Fighting attribute is akin to the Reason attribute. It is what one carries with one into any discipline and it defines the upper limits of excellence that one can hope to achieve within any given discipline. The "discipline" does of course offer something in and of itself, as reflected in the bonuses and perks a given Talent affords within the game, but the mere possession of that talent cannot be taken as a sure sign of excellence. Within any group of PhD's we will find some that barely made it, the rank and file "Dr.Joes" of the club, and then various levels of genius, even as the actual combat worthiness of various people who hold black belts within a common martial art will be found to vary from just-barely-good-enough to average to various degrees of genius. I suppose you could think of any given martial art as being an engine, while innate aptitude is the fuel. Now, the engine is what it is, but within that context, how well it performs will be determined by the quality of the fuel put into it. ------------------------------------------------ Powersurge (history, pics) [www.classicmarvel.com]
------------------------------------------------ Morningstar (campaign journal) [www.classicmarvel.com]
------------------------------------------------ "You just decided *all by yourselves* that you are the Earth's protectors. And that you, and *only* you, not your teammates or family, are trustworthy enough to include in the process..." T'Challa, The New Avengers: Illuminati 1
Frank Castle is an Incredible Fighting at best imho. The military doesn't teach you -that- well.
 
Yeah... I’d say Frank is pretty ‘Solid’ at IN:40 Fighting... but he can achieve the following...
IN:40 Fighting + Talents = AM:50 FEAT rolls.... For Gunnery “Combat” OR RM:30 Agility + Talents + Weapon = AM:50 FEAT rolls.... For Gunnery “Combat” I just remember seeing Frank once had AM:50 “Fighting” on an old stat page... This may have been the concept the author wanted to get across....... The Fighting Rank serves your Character for more than simple close quarters / hand to hand stuff.... Anyway, this thread defiantly illustrates how complex and versatile the “Fighting” Rank is....
www.TankerAce.com | www.Arcain.com | www.Viper99.com
Well, perhaps you're reading a little more into my assertion than was intended, but the best of the best that history has to offer in any particular field are NOT people who simply studied hard. They are people who had innate ability. Likewise, there are plenty of people who possess black belts in some martial art or another who simply aren't all that formidable in HTH combat and have lost to people with NO formal training, just innate ability. So how would you prefer I phrase it? A rose being a rose by any other name. ------------------------------------------------ Powersurge (history, pics) [www.classicmarvel.com]
------------------------------------------------ Morningstar (campaign journal) [www.classicmarvel.com]
------------------------------------------------ "You just decided *all by yourselves* that you are the Earth's protectors. And that you, and *only* you, not your teammates or family, are trustworthy enough to include in the process..." T'Challa, The New Avengers: Illuminati 1
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