New stats for Hulk and Thor

You've raised a great point, the only persuasive one I've heard in support of Thor's fighting. Unlike many other heroes, who learned to walk, talk, move and fight before they gained their power levels, Thor has had them since birth (although they were presumably lower and increased as he matured). Unlike the Hulk, for example, who probably at first couldn't even move well without smashing into things and busting up everything he touched or even brushed against, Thor physically developed at the same time he developed his fighting skills.

I love the idea of decreasing the fighting stats of heroes if they lose their superhuman power, because it makes sense. A guy who fought like the Hulk (style wise) but had the build of, say, Daredevil, would get taken out pretty easily. Hulk's fighting style would naturally be specific to his power level.

Very interesting thought. I still wouldn't make Thor and Herc the ultimate warriors (I still like them at Rem/Incr), but I like the point you made. Thanks for sharing it.

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The Norse myths actually don't give us any indication of Thor's battle prowess or style fo fighting, other than to say that he had never been beaten.

General Norse-Teutonic culture on the otherhand gives us plenty of indication that they did not consider brute strength alone to be the primary virtue of a warrior. The elite fighters of Norse-Teutonic tradtion fought naked, relied as much on speed and agility (to say nothing of martial technique) as brute strength, and utilized psychological tactics in their attacks. Their warrior tradition was honed during the Iron Age, in which they found themselves at a distinct disadvantage against the Celts (who possessed Iron centuries before their Germanic neighbours) and the Romans (who fought as a group as opposed to the single combatant aesthetic of Celto-Germanic culture).

Such men as these ultimately subsumed the Celtic tribes of Continental Europe, brought a humiliating end to the legend of invincibility well earned by the Roman Legions, and were ultimately renowned from Iceland to Constantinople for their prowess as warriors. And such men as these, knowing well the poignant difference between being strong and being battle worthy, hailed Thor as the greatest warrior of the gods.

There is in fact no good reason to rank Thor's battle prowess at mortal levels. Even if deprived of his strength.

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I concur.

I would agree that Thor (Hercules as well, and a host of other "cosmic" characters) should have a lower fighting score, although I would probably place it at Incredible. Although Thor is a warrior with thousands of years of fighting experience to draw upon, his fighting technique falls within a small range of fighting styles and formats. He is definitely not a master of multiple fighting styles such as Captain America would be, and quite honestly has never been depicted as the pinnacle fighting machine in any comics I have read (although he is a highly adept fighter no doubt) and I have been collecting religiously since 1976. Additionally, Thor having Unearthly fighting, well above Captain America's Amazing fighting rank, runs contrary to the normal team dynamic which makes the blending of such characters logical. Captain America, becomes superflous as a team member with Thor or Hercules when he is not the pinnacle of fighting prowess on the team, since taking away that advantage from the character demotes CA to simply being the guy with the shield. This is the premise by which comics writers have always approached the team dynamic in the books and has been stated by many when describing the make-up of a given team. Additionaly this has also been touched on in role playing accessories and supplements (even MSH RPG products) to explain why characters such as CA are worthwhile when you have a powerhouse such as Thor around. I have always felt the only reason for the over-hyping of Thor's and Hercules' fighting prowess was due to the original game creators fear of using the "Shift" stats on player characters, and they wanted to balloon certain characters health to make them seem "godly". So instead of giving higher Strength or Endurance they pushed up the fighting score. That being said I also hate that in the Official Handbooks, in the Deluxe Edition which had been out around the time many of these stats were created, the "Class 100" syndrom was put into effect so that basically any character in the handbooks with that designation was given the generic ability to lift 100 tons in the game, many of these characters can lift well above that (which has also been demonstrated in the comics many times). I would actually place Thor's stats as follows:

Fighting: Inc (40)
Agility: Exc (20)
Strength: Shift X (150) *still low when compared to the comics
Endurance: Shift X (150)

Health: 360

I take your point. You might note another discussion in which the whole Fighing stat was discussed as representing an amalgam or synergy of all the other physical and mental abilities (ASERIP describe the person, and F represents the overall effectiveness of the combat package, so to speak).

I don't disagree with you about Thor's fighting skill, if the F stat represents only fighting skill without taking into account any of the physical (ASE) and mental (RIP) abilities. If that's the case, I would think Incr would be a reasonable rank.

I would differ in terms of Thor's S, however. The whole S rank has undergone a weird evolution from the Marvel Universe's Guide on. Prior to that, readers (and writers) were free to assume any degree of strength to make a story interesting, without having to worry about actual numerical measures. In the early days, I think characters were ranked relatively, but with only the most inchoate notions about the actual amount of weight they could lift.

In those days, in their first fight, in fact, Thor and Hulk got into an extended hand-to-hand battle (Thor, in character, put Mjolnir in his belt and fought with only his bare fists). The comic ended with the conclusion that the Hulk was physically more powerful, while Thor was more skilled. No surprise.

After the Marvel Universe Guide came out, everyone got a little obsessed (imho) with the whole "Class 100" strength class with all the powerhouses having to have it.

The early editions of the Guide actually differentiated the strength based on total lifting/pressing power. If these, early guides were translated into stats, and assuming that all ranks after Incr (Amaz & up) relate to the number of tons able to be lifted, the MU powerhouses could be distinguished by the following (physical) stats:

Hulk

F Rem (30)
A Good (10)
S Monstrous (70)
E Monstrous (75)
Health: 185

How you deal with the adrenalin surge with these stats will make a big difference on how quickly his effective strength rises (immediate column shift vs. adding a set amount per turn, for example).

Thing

F Incr (40)
A Good (10)
S Monstrous (70)
E Monstrous (75)
Health: 195

Thor

F Incr (40)
A Exc (20)
S Unearthly (95)
E Unearthly (100)
Health: 255

Hercules

F Incr (40)
A Ex (20)
S Unearthly (100)
E Unearthly (100)
Health: 260

Some groups actually distinguish every stat by a number in the range, rather than just assigning the rank, so as to distinguish between say, Daredevil and Iron Fist, or the powerhouses like Hulk and Thing who might have the same rank but not the same strength.

I would note that these values are before the more recent HUGE (an, imho inflated) increases in power among just about everyone in the MU.

I will agree that latety it seems that every Marvel character has had a power boost and not just strength related, (although some I feel are justified, such as Quicksilver, since many of the feats that he has demonstarted even in the 60's would require far more speed than what even the first or second handbook series described...sustained speed of 175 MPH...please), and yes many were significantly less powerful in the 60's, but by the 70's and early 80's (well before even the initial run of the handbook) many had already displayed feats of strength/power far greater than the handbook describes. If one were to go by the original handbooks (which woefully underestimated many characters abilities), than the Rhino would only be able to lift 20 tons, which is absolutely laughable, even by the displays of power he had shown prior to that handbooks publishing date. I myself don't necessarily have a problem with characters being in the Class 100 category according to the handbooks since it is supposed to give a vague representation of their strength, and thus not constraining writers as badly, but in the game I prefer that stats be represented more closely to what has been depicted in the comics upto that point in published history. As an example both Thor and Wonderman have Class 100 strength most assuredly, this has been depicted multiple times in comics throughout their careers, but having said that, even Wonderman would admit that Thor is stronger than him (yes stronger, not just more powerful, but I would agree that Wonderman is more resistant to damage so it makes his character just as useful) and I would like to see this more accurately displayed in the game as opposed to every "powerhouse/strongman" character becoming a virtual clone of one another (at least as far as stats go) and given the generic Unearthly rank strength. Thor has been described as having lifted the Midgard Serpent, a creature whose mass is beyond human ability to quantify. This and other similar feats should set him apart from others in the Class 100 category as far as the game is concerned and although Shift X strength is still far below what I feel his strength should actually be, with the way the game is designed, to go any higher would gravely throw the playability out of balance. There are others who I think should also receive a change in stats along these lines.

As for the concept of fighting being an amalgamation of the other stats, I don't subscribe to that idea at all. Fighting is (as described in the players handbook) "A measure of RAW combat ability". In other words the characters most basic inherent ability to engage another character in combat. I would concur with those that have stated that if you were to take away Thor's godly powers, and reduce him to the same strength and endurance level as Captain America, he would lose. It would be a good fight, but he would lose. I don't see why the addition of his godly atrributes would somehow imbue him with greater abilities and talents, or somehow make it easier to hit a target with his bare fist than when he was powered down, unless part of his godly powers provided for that, in which case it would be just that....a power (i.e. superspeed) and would be listed as a power and not a raw attribute.



All this being said, I love Thor as a character, he is probably one of my top five and I don't have a problem admiting when MY favorite characters would lose or have deficiencies (which by my way of thinking, Incredible fighting is NOT a deficiency, it still represents an extremely adept and skillfull combatant). I am not one that had a problem when Thor lost to Superman (and I am not a fan of Superman at all) in the Avengers/JLA crossover..he should have lost based on what has been displayed in the canon of comics literature presented thus far. But along those lines, I don't like seeing contrived excuses and reasons to ballon my favorite characters abilities because someone can't accept that their favorite character is not the best at everything. Overcoming superior odds or villains is one of the things that makes a hero a hero and has always been the hallmark of a good Marvel character. So if Thor has to meet someone with equal physical prowess and far superior combat training (such as the Elder of the Universe, Champion, who has studied the combat techniques of countless worlds throughout the universe..someone who actually deserves Unearthly, if not higher Fighting ability) seeing him overcome those odds and come out the victor is what makes for good storytelling in the comics or for us good roleplaying within the game.

I don't necessarily disagree with you, but one could argue that many superhero character has exhibited strength way beyond listed stats in a comic, usually when a different writer came on board, or some such editorial change. The Hulk has actually supported a mountain (in "Secret Wars") which was said to be in the order of over 20000 tons, I believe. This would place him (game stat-wise) way off the charts, probably Cl1000 at least, BUT, one can also assume that this was a Strength FEAT with a red result and loads of karma. Same with Thor and the Midgard serpent. It doesn't make much sense to make a superhero's strength Stat in the game to equal the maximum strength they've every exhibited in a comic book. This would favor the popular characters too much to even be playable by most standards.

The F stat being an amalgam isn't something I necessarily agree with (the "new stats for Thor" post, below, has it, I believe), but it is a very thought-provoking idea, and definitely gave me something to think about. I hadn't thought of it that way, but rather had assumed it was something closer to just a skill (in which case, conceptually, why should it be part of your health? Why not just make it a skill with its own rank?), in which case Thor and Herc, some would say (myself included) shouldn't get Unearthly rank. People can differ, of course, on that.

I don't necessarily disagree with you, but one could argue that many superhero character has exhibited strength way beyond listed stats in a comic, usually when a different writer came on board, or some such editorial change. The Hulk has actually supported a mountain (in "Secret Wars") which was said to be in the order of over 20000 tons, I believe. This would place him (game stat-wise) way off the charts, probably Cl1000 at least, BUT, one can also assume that this was a Strength FEAT with a red result and loads of karma. Same with Thor and the Midgard serpent. It doesn't make much sense to make a superhero's strength Stat in the game to equal the maximum strength they've ever exhibited in a comic book. This would favor the popular characters too much to even be playable by most standards.

The F stat being an amalgam isn't something I necessarily agree with (the "new stats for Thor" post, below, has it, I believe), but it is a very thought-provoking idea, and definitely gave me something to think about. I hadn't thought of it that way, but rather had assumed it was something closer to just a skill (in which case, conceptually, why should it be part of your health? Why not just make it a skill with its own rank?), in which case Thor and Herc, some would say (myself included) shouldn't get Unearthly rank. People can differ, of course, on that.

A few months back I mentioned the exact same thing regarding Hulk holding up that mountain in Secret Wars. There has to be some kind of base Strength rank that is the standard and then when the hero is really flexing (i.e. spending the heck out of their Karma for the Red result.) they can on occasion do something more difficult.

The Last Duskblade
Q-Class Forever!!!

But I am not referencing overly extreme examples of strength, I am simply refering to very common occurences and displays within the various titles and saying that it hurts the characters to reduce them ALL to the same generic level of strength when certain characters indeed warrant a higher score than others. How many times have we seen characters such as Thor, Hercules or the Hulk supporting a locomotive engine or lift a jet plane. The most common jet in use today is a 747 which has a weight, when empty, of 395,000 lbs or 197.5 tons. When lifting these though they are never empty and it is done all the time in the books thus I would not see it as needing a RED result due to the established history of these things being lifted in the past. Lifting the mountain on the other hand is an extreme even in the books and warrants a RED result (if you believe Hercules tales he has actually lifted the island of Manhattan). Basically what I am looking for is not pure adherence to the comics per se (thus giving Thor onlt SHIFT X), but to simply give characters less of a generic feeling to them, with some receiving stats which are truer in escalation and scale to what we see in the books but not exactly 100 percent adherence to them (as I said the game design makes it impossible for one to place certain characters any where near where they should be and still be remotely playable along side the rest of the Marvel Universe characters).

I, uh, I hear what you're saying (I think), but having a ShiftX S score is unbalanced both in comics terms (Thor doesn't routinely engage in feats of strength, certainly not on that scale) and game terms (where a single blow from ShiftX S takes out just about everyone). It would be like playing that old "Space Invaders" game, but the invaders never land, just going back and forth. Thor would be hitting them and putting them each down with one hit. I would guess Thor's probably used to that, but it doesn't make for interesting comic fights or very fun game action, imho.

That mountain was supposed to weigh like 20 billion tons.

If you've read recent Thor issues, that assertation isn't far fetched at all. Look what he did to Tony. It wasn't even a remotely balanced fight, and you know how powerful that suit of his is.

20 billion tons? Okay, so is that Cl5000 or are we at Beyond at that point?

The Thor-Iron Man thing depends on how you see Iron Man. Iron Man is a character who has been consistently and badly overrated in both comics and game terms.

Characters at Monstrous S already do as much damage in game terms with a punch as a tank shell. Other tanks get destroyed by a tank shell; there's no way a man-sized/shaped suit of armor would be able to withstand it. I remember comics when Thor used Mjolnir to shatter a MBT with one hit, and it smashed apart like a ceramic plate. There's no way for a person to carry as much armor on his body as a tank does, unless he were inside a six-foot sphere of armor (which would make it difficult to make action poses in the comics, I suppose).

So there's no real way for Iron Man to withstand a MBT tank shell, and Thor hits a lot harder than a tank shell does, in game terms. You don't have to posit Thor's strength at ShiftX to explain his recent a$$ beating of shell head; even Monst strength ought to do that, but for inflating Iron Man's armor stats way beyond even comic book reality.

Maybe Thor was wearing his belt of strength.

civet5285 Wrote:
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> 20 billion tons? Okay, so is that Cl5000 or are we
> at Beyond at that point?

Ah, excuse me. It was 150 Billion tons. See?

And it was a huge exaggeration as inside the actual comic Reed Richards explicitely states that he's not holding up the entire mountain and just maintaining a lucky pocket that they ended up inside from collapsing.

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[www.classicmarvel.com] - There is no such thing as too powerful Forum Thread

Hm. All right, I grant you, but how much strength was he exerting to even do that much? I mean, how much weight was he supporting on his back to support that pocket, I wonder? If the mountain is that heavy, probably that pocket is more than 100 tons, right?

Hmm.

Punstarr,

Are you responding to my post? If so I do remember it being something nutty like that. Do you feel that he should never have been able to life it? Meaning that...

...do you think it is way too much of a shift outside of what his standard (no Karma, automatic feat, type stuff) Strength would allow?

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