True Beyonders vs. Living Tribunal
Posted by Emperor Doom
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Actually let's get the facts straight.
Living tribunal first appearance is in Strange Tales #157. In order to stop Umar from conquering earth the Ancient One instructs his disciple to find the Timeless Amphora where Eternity imprisoned a being most evil called Zom. Strange frees Zom and who then drives Umar back to the Dark Dimesnion. But now Zom wants to destroy the universe. So the Ancient One lets himself fall and gives his power and one last cryptic sentence "beware the coming of.....!" to Strange and then is gone. While Stephen fights Zom he manages to sever Zom's forelock of hair which releases his evil all across the globe. This allows everyone with the merest training and potential to harness their abilities (for evil of course). This upsets the balance and who is coming? None other than the Living Tribunal. When he arrives his first words are "for what you have done hapless mortal you-- and the entire planet earth-- must be totally destroyed. Such is the judgement of The Living Tribunal " Next issue starts with LT describibg to Doc exactly how this all came to be. He show him the Big Bang which formed this and every other dimnension in the multiverse. Then he says "All the dimesnions--each nebulous netherworld which exists either in time or space--either as matter or fathomless void--such where given over into the eternal, deathless keeping of The Living Tribunal." So even from the very begining he is portrayed as not only being the judge and jury for this and every dimension but also powerful enough to do what must be done to "keep the peace". DG X( Marvel > DC
Objection your honour.. back in the 1970's, all the great cosmic beings were "multidimensional". Even the watcher can observe a myriad of dimensions as per "what IF". heck, in Marvel circa-1975 you me and 9 guys with baseball bats could destroy the earth.
My objection to LT is not whether he is multidimension but whether he really is "all powerful" ie, worthy of being given "all beyond stats". In one of the later issues of Rom, Rom teams up with Doc to fight the Dire Wraiths. And the Tribunal wants Dr. Strange not to stop the Wraithworld from invading Earth. Apparently Doc Strange has caused the balance shifted over to good. Then Rom saves the day by saying to LT, " hey dumb @#$%&, there's already a large presence of DWs on Earth. So LT backs off and says "oh my mistake" or words to that effect. Some mr "all powerful". Someday there will be no racism. Thats the day aliens will attack. Then we will all hate green people.
Simply because a later artist wrote a crappy story with LT in it doesn't change what the origin and rank of a character is. I mean the actual Beyonder went from top to joke with a single stroke of a writer's pen. The right move IMO as he was a joke to begin with. But that is just my opinion.
And ROM? Are you serious? The would be space knight with the 1950's SCi-Fi jumpsuit and box helmet with VW Bug headlights in the front? Let's all look at ROM and laugh for a moment. [www.classicmarvel.com] Seriosly though, one poor use of him in one mag does not undo the fact that from the moment he came onto the scene and right up to the present day, the vast majority of the times we see him is when he's humbling the biggest and baddest beings in all the Marvel Multiverse. The Infinity Gaunlet negated with but the snap of a finger. Nuff' Said. DG X( Marvel > DC
And the Beyonder is Realistic?
There are millions of different realities and LT is the guardian of Balance of all these different realities but every few years he pops up in "our universe". You think this guy would say "that universe # 20456783 sure is giving me a lot of headaches, think I'll wipe it out". This whole "living tribunal is guardian of the omniverse" thing is so pointless. Didn't the LT once pop up in Mephisto's realm to tell him not to start messing around with taking too many souls? And Mephisto was like "didn't Silver Surfer Rebel against Galactus? Didn't Dormammu Dare to challenge Eternity? MUhhahah" you think mephisto would be smart enough to realize that LT is the biggest cosmic entity out there and challenging him would be futile. What's the point of being evil or good if the LT is just going to come down and thwart you if you get to close to achieving a major goal like conquering the universe or curing all diseases? What is the point of balancing Evil and Good? LT is so pointless and useless it isn't funny. Now the Beyonder, now there was an omnipotent entity with some class. This guy was the basis for Q in STTNG. Actually Q when he first came on was like a cross between Beyonder and LT as he called himself the "judge" but appeared more like an unfair truly maleovelent being. Someday there will be no racism. Thats the day aliens will attack. Then we will all hate green people.
[snip] Now the Beyonder, now there was an omnipotent entity with some class. [/snip]
Spiderman had to teach him when and how to use the toilet. He was a, "What if John Travolta and Forrest Gump had a kid, that became the herald of Galactus?" ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Build a man a fire and he will be warm for a night. Set a man on fire, and he will be warm the rest of his life
ROFLMAO@Kaz
And LT doesn't "pop in anywhere". He is the only being in all of the multiverse that exists in all dimensions simultaneously. Also LT isn't so much about balancing good and evil as he is ensuring the continued existance of the different dimesnions. It's only when one dimension threatens the others that he steps up and does something about it. When Thanos first got the Infinity Gauntlet, Eternity brought him before the Living Tribunal to try and strip the power away from him and LT ruled that while Thanos was in fact evil his reign would not threaten the other panes of existance, therefore no action was taken. But when Adam Warlock gained the same prize LT ruled he was unstable and the Dimensions would meet a nasty end, therefore he ordered Warlock to disband the gems and disperse them to worthy guardians. LT rocks and the Beyonder is a one of those bad jokes with a crappy punchline. DG X( Marvel > DC
RE: Secret wars 2 N#7.
Mephisto creates a scheme to kill the beynder. he assembles "the mightiest of the multiverse", including you guessed it the LT. The big powerhouse behind this was Eternity. All of the mightiest cosmic beings in marvel are"multiversal". Th LT is one of the most powerful but still was not capable of bouncing the beyonder.
It's been proven that the Beyonder was nothing more than a Cosmic Cube gone awry. And ues LT is the only being that exists in every timeline, evntuality, alternate reality and dimesnsion that exists in Marvel. The Squadron Supreme's Alternate reality has it's own Eternity, Death, Watchers, etc., etc, and so on and so forth.
LT is unique and is "the one above all". DG X( Marvel > DC
Some of you might find this interesting. It is from the module MH-9 "Gates of What If?"
CHAPTER 7: Highway to Hell . . .Clutched in the demon lord's hand is the limp figure of Valor [Victor Von Doom's wife]. MEPHISTO: " Insolent mongrel! Most arrogant of all men! You tried to destroy me--ME, Mephisto the Unkillalbe! You count yourself my equal, but you are a crawling worm with the ego of a madman! You stole the soul of your mother from my realm, and your mechanical servants are killing my demons, but you could not defend you own loved one from me! HERE!" Mephisto tosses Valor at Victor's feet (who automatically catches her before she hits the ground). "Here is your wench, captured by my servants only hours ago! An eye for an eye, a soul for a soul! Her spirit is MINE, for all time! If your soul seeks vengence, then, FIGHT ME, WRETCH!" Any heroes who wish to fight Mephisto may do so. Show them NO MERCY. Mephisto, if he conquers a hero, automatically snatches that hero's body to his own infernal realm for eternal torture (IF Mephisto wins the battle). Recovery of lost heroes is possible, if the PCs gain an ally on the level of Dr. Strange. . . If somehow the PCs and Victor actually DEFEAT Mephisto---then---the demon lord vanishes in a fiery blaze---and ALL damage taken by the heroes from Mephisto VANISHES! "Slain" heroes, as well as Valor, are automatically declared to be alive and unconcious, at death's door (Health: 0) How is this possible? AS DEMONSTRATED BY THE BEYONDER (see Secret Wars II, #9) MEPHISTO'S POWERS ON THE MATERIAL PLANE ARE WHOLLY ILLUSIONARY. ALL DAMAGE TAKEN BY THE HEROES DIRECTLY FROM MEPHISTO IS SIMPLY NOT REAL. Any player who recalls this bit of knowledge may say that it is a tidbit of arcane lore his hero remembered from somewhere; THAT HERO (and any others who also remember it) ARE ALLOWED TO MAKE A RED PSYCHE FEAT ROLL AT THE END OF EACH TURN THEY ARE IN DIRECT BATTLE WITH MEPHISTO, IN ORDER TO "DISBELIEVE" THE DAMAGE AND SEE THROUGH THE ILLUSION. However, this roll must be made every turn in combat. Just because on hero disbelieved an eldritch bolt doesn't mean he disbelieves the fireball on the following turn. SDI PS: I have noticed that from time to time certain modules contain info that one does not find in either the Gamer's Handbooks or core rulebooks. For instance, in "Mutating Mutants" special combat rules on how fights should be conducted between Wolverine and Sabretooth are revealed that I think are pretty cool.
The Beyonder is a typo. Period. The Marvel mainline cannon is that he did NOT beat-up the Celestials, kill Death, etc. The Shaper of Worlds and Kubik showed up and explained to him what he was. He got mad and attacked them. Kubik beat him and the Shaper didn't do anything at all except warn Kubik to be careful not to kill him! They then returned the missing piece of his power to him, which was the power that the Molecule Man had. The resultant "returned-to-full-power" Cosmic Cube that resulted was a girl-form called Kosmos. This being became Kubik's pupil, as Kubik was the pupil of the Shaper.
Cosmic cubes are powerful, but they are not on par with abstracts such as Death. The Beyonder, when returned to full power, was only the third most powerful Cosmic Cube. Will people please finish reading the damn Beyonder arc already! They made a Secret Wars 3 in order to wrap-up all the loose ends. If all you know about the Beyonder is from SW1 and SW2 then you don't know the most important thing! This guy drives me nuts. I get so worked up over his jumpsuited @#$%& that sometimes I wonder ifI should even bother. What am I saying? "Yes!" Yes, I will continue to beat back the foulness that is The Jumpsuited One. "Yes!" Yes, I will continue to unwrite the wrong that was written so many years ago, so that our children and our children's children can stroll through comicdom with nary a thought towards such pitfalls and bear traps as The Jumpsuited One! ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Build a man a fire and he will be warm for a night. Set a man on fire, and he will be warm the rest of his life
Well, Warlock also said in another thread that he would move to Greenwhich Village with his man servant, so to complete the stereotypical innuendo I will concede to his taste in fabrics. Just kiddin' big guy ;) !
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Build a man a fire and he will be warm for a night. Set a man on fire, and he will be warm the rest of his life
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