"Weaker" Heroes

Someone awhile back posted about how it would be to game with some of their favorite heroes at their original, lower power levels, which got me thinking. Here are some stats for heroes at their original levels, which generally are as weak as they have ever been.

I know nowadays the trend in both the game and the comics it to continually up the powers of the heroes, but I actually find "weaker" heroes to be more interesting because they were more vulnerable.

I've only noted areas where the hero is different than the usual listed stats.

What do you think?

Superman (Pre-DC)

F: Excellent (20)
A: Remarkable (30)
S: Amazing (50)
E: Monstrous (75)
R: Good (10)
I: Excellent (20)
P: Excellent (20)
Health: 175
Karma: 50

Powers:

Hyper-Leaping: Shift-Z
Body Resistance: Amazing

Hulk (initial Grey Hulk stats)

F: Good (10)
A: Typical (6)
S: Amazing (50)
E: Monstrous (75)
R: Poor (4)
I: Typical (6)
P: Typical (6)
Health: 141
Karma: 16

Powers:

Regeneration: Amazing


Thing

F: Good (10)
A: Typical (6)
S: Incredible (40)
E: Amazing (50)
R: Typical (6)
I: Good (10)
P: Typical (6)
Health: 106
Karma: 22

Powers:

Body Armor: Remarkable


Spider-Man

F: Good (10)
A: Amazing (50)
S: Remarkable (30)
E: Excellent (20)
R: Excellent (20)
I: Typical (6)
P: Good (10)
Health: 110
Karma: 36

Powers:

Hyper Leaping: Excellent
Spiderclimb: Remarkable
Danger-Sense: Typical

Wolverine

F: Remarkable (30)
A: Excellent (20)
S: Good (10)
E: Excellent (20)
R: Typical (6)
I: Remarkable (30)
P: Excellent (20)

Health: 80
Karma: 56

Powers:

Fast Healing: Excellent (operates as regeneration, without limb replacement)
Body Resistance: Typical vs. Edged or Blunt Weapons

Talents: Swordsmanship, Martial Arts

Silver Surfer

F: Good (10)
A: Excellent (20)
S: Good (10)
E: Amazing (50)
R: Good (10)
I: Good (10)
P: Incredible (40)

Health: 90
Karma: 60

Powers:

Power Cosmic: Monstrous
Can increase Strength, +2 CS/turn, maximum of Amazing
Body Resistance: Unearthly

A nice list, although the Thing was only Remarkable strength starting out, not Incredible. I think the Silver Surfer would also have been pretty much the stats we've always seen him at since he is after all a product of a cosmic entity.

Spider-man and the Hulk I think also have game stats given for them when they initially started out (Spider-man's is in the boxed set related to him).

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hard to really look at these heroes in their 'original' incarnations without taking a look at the Who's Who/OHOTMU issues which cover those versions.

I remember Silver Surfer having an encounter with a jealous Thing, in which Thing beat the holy heck out of him (although, to be fair, Surfer wasn't fighting back). In order to physically overcome the Thing, he used his "power cosmic" to increase his strength, then decked the Thing, which implied that his physical strength was inferior.

I hear you about the Thing, but I couldn't see decreasing Spider-man's strength below Remarkable, and the Thing, from their first encounter, was stronger than Spider-man. Maybe he's a "low" Incredible when he starts.

During the first issue of the Hulk, the Hulk is actually shot with a bullet, which penetrates. He heals from the injury very quickly, but it didn't bounce off the way tank shells did later. Early on, he was vulnerable. He also didn't do any leaping; he hoofed it everywhere. Nor was there mention early on about an adrenalin surge.

Just a thought.

Hm. I'm not up on my acronyms. What, exactly, are you referring to?

He's talking about the Official Handbook Of The Marvel Universe that came out a few decades ago (the comic version of the gamer's handbook for this game, but it predates the gamer's version). The original set provided extremely detailed material on most characters with various stats and even some attempt at scientific explanations of various powers and ability (the write-up for Iron Man shows extremely intricate break-downs and part layouts on the armor for example).

Later versions got a bit too vague or just rediculous in how they presented the material so that it had little if any real value, game or otherwise.

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-- Peter David

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Early thing could do around 5tons/Remarkable of weight (so his move to the CL100/Unearthly level is astounding, especially compared to so many who started out stronger but only improved by a far less degree), while early Spider-man probably was around 1ton. So Spider-man's original stats are represented by a simple reduction of 1CS across the board (other than for his webbing since it's a mechanically produced product he's never improved the formula on).

For the Thing/Surfer example it's probably more along the lines of Surfer getting frustrated at being beat on and lost it and just amped his Strength to go do 'one shot knockout' rather than drag the fight out in a Monstrous vs Unearthly strength combat.

With regards to the Hulk well it WAS the early days of Marvel, much like Superman started out much less powerful than he became. Being new to things naturally he could be hurt until his mutation increased and his skin became hard as armor when transformed. As he developed he quickly advanced until he reached the Green Hulk phase with Monstrous Body Resistance, super-leaping, and Strength-surge at the cost of intelligence and becoming far more independent of mind compared to Banner.

"A shared universe, like any fictional construct, hinges on suspension of disbelief. When continuity is tossed away, it tatters the construct. Undermines it."

-- Peter David

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[www.classicmarvel.com] - There is no such thing as too powerful Forum Thread

Sure I remember them. I have some of them still. I never knew of them with that acronym before.

By the time they came out, Hulk & Thing had gotten to at least Monstrous Strength, and Spider-man well into Incredible, though.

I was talking about the heroes at their very early incarnations.

Or, conversely, the writers just started amping him because that was the trend of the time (which continues to this day). It's pretty tricky to come up with a comic book mechanic that can explain the Thing going from a press limit of around 5 tons to that of around 100. "He mutates further," etc. all of those "in comic" explanations can be reduced to "the writers decided to change him."

That's the trend today, too; every character is more powerful, as far as I can see.

Nightmask Wrote:
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> Early thing could do around 5tons/Remarkable of weight

Not to nitpick, but Remarkable Strength in MSH is basically up to 1 ton (maybe 2), whereas lifting 5 tons would place the Thing in the Incredible Strength category, as far as the game handles matters.

IIRC, Tigra's OHotMU entry mentions her lifting around 5 tons, and she's rated with Incredible Strength...

Quack, damn you...

Surprisingly, what her entry doesn't cover is her being-a-ho-bag ability at Unearthly (100)

capocastillo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Surprisingly, what her entry doesn't cover is her being-a-ho-bag ability at Unearthly (100)

Guessing you're not a big fan of the fuzzball.. ;)

Quack, damn you...

I really can't agree with that, when Incredible's where you have to feat to lift at least 10 tons and the Thing in his start simply didn't rate that. Given the way the game actually allows a character with a red feat to exceed their listed maximums in the comics you can't place the beginning Thing in the incredible capacity since not only would he get a yellow feat to lift twice his normal maximum but could on a red feat do ten times his actual maximum. It's just too far. Most characters are really listed wrong in that regard but we tend to ignore that.

"A shared universe, like any fictional construct, hinges on suspension of disbelief. When continuity is tossed away, it tatters the construct. Undermines it."

-- Peter David

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It's not Tigra's fault the writers like to write single females as either prudes or @#$%& and no middle ground, especially ones with feral or animal templates to their characters. Also by that token need to start calling Luke Cage a @#$%& as well considering we've seen him bragging about all the females he's bagged. His being male doesn't give him any protection in my eyes from the same labels being pinned on her.

"A shared universe, like any fictional construct, hinges on suspension of disbelief. When continuity is tossed away, it tatters the construct. Undermines it."

-- Peter David

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[www.classicmarvel.com] - Sappho Character Sheet

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[www.classicmarvel.com] - Nightmares of Futures Past Ongoing Story

[www.classicmarvel.com] - There is no such thing as too powerful Forum Thread

But I do think Civit's original point is valid: It's fun to play a "weaker" hero, like Superman, where the player has to do a lot of thinking, and get creative: "Hmmm, Superman can't fly, and leaping won't work here, so I'll have him use his super strength to clutch handholds in this heavy lead wall and climb to the top..."

It can be fun to play a lower powered version of a hero. I like to play characters that just aren't quite as powerful as the "average" hero. It takes some creativity.

"My parents went to The Secret Wars Battleworld and all I got was this lousy T-Shirt..."

Well while I favor characters more like Hulk or Thor (or my creations like Paragon or Seraphim) I do play weaker characters as well. Perceptor for The_Rook's game for example (posted in the Your Favorites Section) is probably the weakest character of the group yet I'm having a lot of fun playing him.

"A shared universe, like any fictional construct, hinges on suspension of disbelief. When continuity is tossed away, it tatters the construct. Undermines it."

-- Peter David

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Nightmask Character Sheet

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Paragon Character Sheet

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Complete list of my characters various forum URLs, over 30 to enjoy!

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Godiva Character Sheet

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Seraphim Character Sheet

[www.furaffinity.net] Art by Marvel Comic's artist Rusty Haller!

[www.furaffinity.net] Artist/writer/Creator of The Extinctioners Independent super-hero comic!

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Sappho Character Sheet

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Cornucopia Character Sheet

[www.classicmarvel.com] - Nightmares of Futures Past Ongoing Story

[www.classicmarvel.com] - There is no such thing as too powerful Forum Thread

Luke's a total Cape Chaser. We all know this. But then again, the man has settled down and had a kid, got married, the whole nine.