Galactus vs The Molecule Man

The-Threat's right. The Beyonder allowed Doom to steal his power.

Which totally contradicts events in Secret Wars II, and seems like someone rewriting things without regard to continuity or just didn't bother to check things out thoroughly enough.

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"1.) Neither the Beyonder nor Owen Rece had anything to do with the creation of the "New Universe". This was confirmed by Marvel many times in the editorial pages."

-- Well, then at least Deadpool and She-Hulk knows for sure. ;)

As far as I'm concerned, I *saw* (well, read the comic and saw the pictures anyway) where the Beyonder became a new universe. That it wasn't THE "New Universe" (retcon!) is probably Marvel's way of saying SCREW YOU JIM SHOOTER, but the fact remains that the Beyonder indisputably became "a new universe."

In my Marvel Superheroes campaigns, it is always the case that the Beyonder became the New Universe. Making that easier for me to accept are the "comics history" facts that:

-The Skrulls wiped one third of the life in their galaxy (the Andromeda Galaxy) with their Cosmic Cube before it became the Shaper of Worlds

-The Stranger (originally) was the sum of the minds wiped out on some planet in the Andromeda Galaxy

-The Stranger has posed as the Beyonder before (the Stranger was also once invited to be the 4th face of the Living Tribunal, but refused)

-The Stranger now maintains the version of Earth from the New Universe in his "laboratory"

-Thanos remembers the Beyonder from "his youth"

-The Beyonder explored the Marvel Universe from the Crossroads dimensions that the Hulk was once banished to (before Alpha Flight accidently released him), allowing him to have potentially visited every nook, cranny, and more importantly, time period of the Marvel Multiverse from the inside out

-The StarBrand from the New Universe is one helluva powerful thing.

and to tie it all together, If the Beyonder is just a rupture in the energy dimension that forms Cosmic Cubes (he's "half a cosmic cube"), and Cosmic Cubes require a mind to use them, it is arguable that "the Beyonder" became impressionally self-aware "BEFORE" that rupture occurred (with Molecule Man's origin) via smaller prior ruptures (to create the Skrulls', A.I.M.'s, and the Goddess' Cosmic Cubes, etc.) as a being not truly bound by space or time, ALL Cosmic Cubes / cosmic containment units that have ever been created (or ever will be) probably draw from what is left of Beyonders power pool. If we tie the Stranger's origin to the Skrulls use of a Cosmic Cube as a weapon before it matured into the Shaper of Worlds, we have the instance to suggest that the energies wielded by the Stranger are "the Beyonder" as well.

Trippy stuff, but the idea is that the Beyonder's been messing around in the Marvel Universe longer than the Beyonder has been aware of himself messing around in the MU. Take Molecule Man, the Stranger, the Shaper of Worlds, Kubik, any and all other named and unnamed Cosmic Cubes, and an entirely separate universe from the Marvel 616 Universe, stir them in a pot and brown and serve, and there you have "the Beyonder" in full strength form.

Yikes!

"2.) The Beyonder actually let Dr Doom steal his power - he was curious to see what Doom would do with it."

That's pure respect, choosing Doom rather than, say, Piledriver from the Wrecking Crew. But I gotta give my boy Doom props. He stole the Beyonder's power fair and square, I don't wanna hear no trash talk about "he let it happen."

My money is on Doom realizing the Beyonder was a direct tap to the energies that make Cosmic Cubes as soon as he saw it, and thinking, "Why buy milk when I can have the whole cow?"

I doubt you can really have 'half of a cosmic cube', that was just the efforts of the writer ordered to destroy every facet of the Beyonder by a spiteful new editor to give him some dignity and remake him into something 'acceptable'. Unfortunately though they've used it as an excuse to create 'cubelets', or little cube chips in a sense lately so that dozens of little reality-altering widgets are floating around now (one being shaped into a ring that Freedom's Ring wore briefly before getting himself killed because he was an idiot). Whether or not these can evolve eventually into Mini-Kubiks or not we'll just have to wait and see, but the dimension the energy comes from is infinitely beyond comprehension and inexhaustable. Even if you go along with that awful retcon for him he was still infinite because the power of the cubes is infinite; only built-in safeguards that the Beyonder never had prevent them from giving Beyond rank power to their wielders. The Infinity Crusade revealed that tidbit courtesy of the Goddess. As far as the New Universe goes, the vast majority of the Beyonder's energies went into creating it but the Beyonder, i.e. the mind of the Beyonder, did not. That was shunted to another pocket dimension it created to retreat into until Doom and company found him.

As far as the Molecule Man goes, his infinite power came from the unleashing of the latent psionic potential all humans have, similar to the Destiny Force Rick Jones occasionally wields. Until he was dragged into that awful retcon it was the unleashing of that potential that ripped the pinhole into the dimension the Beyonder was in and alerted it to the Marvel Multiverse. Owen didn't gain his powers from the Beyonder though.

"A shared universe, like any fictional construct, hinges on suspension of disbelief. When continuity is tossed away, it tatters the construct. Undermines it."

-- Peter David

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Nightmask Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I doubt you can really have 'half of a cosmic
> cube', that was just the efforts of the writer
> ordered to destroy every facet of the Beyonder by
> a spiteful new editor to give him some dignity and
> remake him into something 'acceptable'.
> Unfortunately though they've used it as an excuse
> to create 'cubelets', or little cube chips in a
> sense lately so that dozens of little
> reality-altering widgets are floating around now
> (one being shaped into a ring that Freedom's Ring
> wore briefly before getting himself killed because
> he was an idiot). Whether or not these can evolve
> eventually into Mini-Kubiks or not we'll just have
> to wait and see, but the dimension the energy
> comes from is infinitely beyond comprehension and
> inexhaustable. Even if you go along with that
> awful retcon for him he was still infinite because
> the power of the cubes is infinite; only built-in
> safeguards that the Beyonder never had prevent
> them from giving Beyond rank power to their
> wielders. The Infinity Crusade revealed that
> tidbit courtesy of the Goddess. As far as the New
> Universe goes, the vast majority of the Beyonder's
> energies went into creating it but the Beyonder,
> i.e. the mind of the Beyonder, did not. That was
> shunted to another pocket dimension it created to
> retreat into until Doom and company found him.
>
> As far as the Molecule Man goes, his infinite
> power came from the unleashing of the latent
> psionic potential all humans have, similar to the
> Destiny Force Rick Jones occasionally wields.
> Until he was dragged into that awful retcon it was
> the unleashing of that potential that ripped the
> pinhole into the dimension the Beyonder was in and
> alerted it to the Marvel Multiverse. Owen didn't
> gain his powers from the Beyonder though.

The trouble with Infinity minus 1 is that it always somehow will equal 52...

Actually that was established at the end of Secret Wars 1.

I need to find a copy of the last issue of Secret Wars I. Anyone have a copy? I'm sure the Beyonder alluded to having "let" Doom steal his power in that issue, just like in the Spider-Man episode with the Beyonder.

Nightmask Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You should know me enough by now to know that I
> don't let personal bias get in the way of
> write-ups and character stats, and as far as the
> various write-ups go they were highly biased
> against him. His OHOTMU mentions his unlimited
> potential and he worried a Watcher even more than
> Galactus did, and Galactus as we all know eats
> planets. I really don't accept a retcon driven
> out of spite for him and even if I did I still
> class him at the CL5000 level. The Watcher only
> barely got involved when Galactus showed up,
> didn't do anything at all with the Phoenix (and
> she ate suns), but he personally got involved to
> send Owen to another dimension. CL3000 doesn't do
> him justice, since when you bring Kubik up you
> neglect how it was completely helpless against
> Owen, and Kubik was around and evolved for some
> time. Heck Galactus can't even really control his
> powers without a power-regulating suit, whereas
> Owen has total mastery of his powers and requires
> no crutch to exercise his powers.

Ok, that's it! I can't read anymore without saying something. I will finish the thread, but I got to say this first! Nightmask, even if we grant that Owen is all you say he is, that only speaks for him! Galactus is seriously underrated by you! And that is the bias that you cannot deny! You sreiously are generous towards Owen's abilities that you would undermine the knowledge and abilities that Galactus would certainly have all over Owen! So much so that you won't even speak of the Devourer of worlds properly. 1) the reason these Watchers you refer to do not worry about Galactus and said others threats is cause they are true cosmic beings well disciplined in their abilities and missions! They are more like forces of nature and thus preictable! 2)Owen is just a smug little punk with big powers and a human mind that is subject to emotions! That's what made the Phoenix so dangerous cause it inhabited a human body and emotions are too unstable to possess such power! Owen qualifies here BIG TIME! 3)And Galactus does not need his suit for anything other than to allow him maximum energy conservation so that he can go about his buisness without having to spend any energy to maintain it! Just like his machines to consume worlds! He doesn't need them, but uses them in order to maximize his energy transfer without expending energy of his own!

Dude, I love you and all, and that's for real....But your not seeing things as the really are. I'm not hatin on Owen and neither is Punstarr, but you are simply not right here!

And just to say, Pun has been making some excellent points and so has Warhammer! You just don't seem to want to hear it! A sign is you keep making the same argument only reworded over and over! You know what they say about the fly and the window right????

____________________________________________


"POWER.... WITHOUT "perception" is virtually USELESS.... and therefore of NO.... "true" VALUE"

In the original Secret Wars, Beyonder and Molecule man squared off. Beyonder was apologetic towards MM. But MM thought he was coming to kill him so he ambushed the Beyonder. THe Beyonder said something like " nice shot..that last one could have destroyed a couple of thousand galaxies".. or words to that effect.

Now Galactus is powerful, but it takes some time for him to "eat" a planet, and afterwards he needs some time to digest. There's no evidence Galactus could withstand a force bolt that could wipe out a couple of thousand galaxies with one shot.

Actually the example of a child using a computer is the right example.. but more for Galactus than MM. It's more like this... Take the most experienced 9 year old boy in the world at Martial Arts. Like that Ernie Reyes guy from Red Sonja. Face him off against some 350 pound 6-10 monster man who spends all day working out. I can guarantee you, despite all of the kid's skill and knowledge, he's going to lose. He just doesn't have the power.

You need to recheck your material on Galactus; his armor is essential for him to regulate and control his powers and the reference to his turning into a good-sized star without the armor to contain his power is a direct quote from the handbooks. It was re-stated somewhat during the MU2 Storyarc 'Last Planet Standing', wherein Galactus and the Silver Surfer merged and the new entity was forced to claim the remains of Galactus's armor and reforge it to contain its own cosmic power The Power Essential. If you check back to any flashbacks or retellings for Galactus after the Big Bang it even shows him inside the reshaped ship turned incubator from the previous universe fashioning the armor to help him control his vast cosmic might. It hasn't anything to do with energy conservation other than tangentially, it's all about keeping his power under his control.

I do credit Galactus with being able to be a challenge for Owen but a CL1000 Reason doesn't make one immune to defeat or ensure that they can do all sorts of creative things just because, you have to have challenges that require you to learn those creative uses. When you look at his history Galactus until recently hasn't faced any challenges at his level that would require him to really get subtle with his powers. He normally just tosses up a force field, assembles his converter, and if someone gets through it blasts them to ash, not much room for creativity in that.

"A shared universe, like any fictional construct, hinges on suspension of disbelief. When continuity is tossed away, it tatters the construct. Undermines it."

-- Peter David

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And the Beyonder outright stated Doom stole his power in SW2 (or at least during his 'guest' appearance in the FF) just before Reed talked him out of doing it lest he create a paradox that could destroy existence.

"A shared universe, like any fictional construct, hinges on suspension of disbelief. When continuity is tossed away, it tatters the construct. Undermines it."

-- Peter David

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I like that analogy The_Threat, I just couldn't find a good one to put it in perspective myself.

"A shared universe, like any fictional construct, hinges on suspension of disbelief. When continuity is tossed away, it tatters the construct. Undermines it."

-- Peter David

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Galactus eats planets, imagine where he goes potty.

There's a "where does the energy Galactus consumes go" question here.

I'm starting to come around to the Molecule Man wins side of the argument, but I'm not quite there yet.

The Power Cosmic is, for lack of a better term, "beyond" the ability to manipulate quantum particles to alter physical reality (though that is it's most mundane use).

For all we know, the Marvel Multiverse is the one the Beyonder gave his energies to (there's a closed time loop for ya...) and so the "Power Cosmic" is just another facet of the Beyonder. Maybe Molecule Man and Galactus and every other cosmic powered being are benificiaries of a "Godwave" from the beginning of the universe... no wait, that's DC.

It all comes down to Franklin Richards saying so, doesn't it?

Maybe it's a good thing the Ego Gem is in the Ultraverse, where it can't be brought to the Marvel Universe and used to override the Living Tribunal's ban on using the Infinity Gems together anymore. ;)

Hey, what about the Ultimate Nullifier? Tell me Molecule Man can survive Galactus' pain-killer?

Well from what we've seen in the Secret Wars Galactus converts his cosmic power into the creation of solid-energy constructs, most notibly in the form of his vehicles and world-ship (perhaps even has more than one). Perhaps a way of storing it up for future emergencies as easily converted energy when planets aren't available. Thanks to Annihilus he burned through a lot of his stored energies and has to restore himself at the expense of an unknown number of planets for a rapid feasting to get back to his normal levels. In the unfinished Last Galactus story published in Epic we saw Galactus at the end of time after the last Watcher's pretty much exterminated all life in an obsessive desire to kill Galactus and the end result Galactus rips open his armor to release all that life energy he's consumed to become the new Big Bang and Nova the Galactus of the new universe. I think the most acceptable explanation of his feeding I've seen is that when he consumes a world he scatters the 'seeds' of life energy to other worlds helping to effectively fertilize new planets with the energies to form into life-bearing worlds. This would help explain both the rapid increase in life-bearing worlds over time and how his hunger seems to increase with time as each feeding creates more worlds and his hunger rises in proportion to those worlds as they become more prevalent and easier to find to consume.

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Nice to see this Thread is getting the attention it deserves:.D.I think some of you guys forget Galactus is over 15 Billon years old.He has seen some cosmic wannabes come and go.That is far more knowledge and experience then Owen has.Galactus science was used to rip the Beyonders power away.Even if the Beyonder allowed it::!o it still was capable of doing it.Plus the Ultimate Nullifier would turn Owen into a Toasted Marshmellow.Galactus would have Hell of a Fight on on his Hands.If Owen was secret wars 2 owen Galactus will lose this one.Anything less the Nerd gets sand kicked in his Face:P Besides Doom ambushed him and nearly Killed owen and Woverine nearly Gutted him in secret wars 1.Owen is very much a Mortal being with vast Power.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/26/2007 01:28PM by Galactus 1.

In the first Secret Wars Owen was in a very passive and non-confrontational state thanks to his therapist and quite vulnerable because of it, and not like he's had to deal with a ferocious and murderous attack like that of Wolverine before that point, and was still operating under his mental-block levels of power. If not for that he could have easily stopped Wolverine before being almost gutted. Also when Doom ambushed Owen he was trying to live a quiet life and deny his powers (Heck he was coming back from grocery shopping at the time instead of just making the food) and vulnerable, although had more than enough physical durability to survive the full onslaught of Doom's weapon systems and recover within hours. After those events and the return of his powers and abandonment by Volcana he spent months exploring the depths of his powers like he hadn't before and realizing his power and control over matter and energy that he simply hadn't been required to in the past.

"A shared universe, like any fictional construct, hinges on suspension of disbelief. When continuity is tossed away, it tatters the construct. Undermines it."

-- Peter David

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I wouldn't want to fight Molecule Man unless I was Galactus.

I still maintain that months of exploring his power still makes him a novice... especially when compared to 15 billion years of experience.