Strength and Lifting

Now that me and my willful adversaries have entirely hi-jacked and taken over the Northstar thread, I have at last decided that the subject might be worthy of its own thread.

This is the beef; since the first Handbook of the Marvel Universe the strength levels of the heavy hitters have been given as what they can lift/press under optimal/optimum conditions.

Now, I know that people like to get very inventive with language, and try to make it mean all kinds of crap that it doesn't mean, but according to my Websters optimum is defined as "the amount or degree of something most favourable to a given end". Likewsie, optimal is defined as "most desirable".

Now, within the logic of the Marvel RPG system optimal equates to a Red Feat; ie. what one is capable of under the most favourable conditions, when everything that can go one's way does go one's way.

Nevertheless, the game sets the Strength attribute of all the heavy hitters at their optimal levels, when it should be 1 rank lower than "optimal" or "what they can attain on a Red Feat".

This all breaks down to a discussion on Normal Human levels of Strength.

According to the charts given at the begin of the Judge's Book, Poor Strength is "Normal Human", meaning that even under the best circumstances your average person can't press more than 200 lbs over heir head. That is in keeping with the realities of the average person.

Now, Typical Strength would be equivalent to an average sized man, between 170 and 190 lbs, who engages in regular exercise. Some cops, most firefighters, and pretty well all of your average sized atheletes fall into this category.

Good Strength would be your heavy weight and super heavy weight athletes such as NFL linebackers, Professional Wrestlers, and Powerlifters.

Paul Anderson, who is, unto this day, creditted as being the worlds strongest man, had an offical lift/press, ie. a military press, of 400 lbs. Unoffically he has pressed up to 600 lbs. This would seem to stat his Strength at Good, ie. up to 400 lbs standard, and over 400 lbs on a Red Feat.

While the ranking of Excellent is listed as being "Maximim Human", the reality is that, all-in-all, this is well beyond human capability. 800 lbs for instance, is in the ballpark of what most world class powerlifters squat. Of course, the Marvel standard of Strength has always been based on the military press (lift to shoulders and press overhead). So, while Anderson can boast a press that ranges into Excellent, he was never able to duplicate that lift around judges. So, a 03% margin of success for that seems about right.

But, how many humans have ever presses in excess of 800 lbs over their heads? Over 800 lbs (and up to a ton) falling into the Red Feat range for anyone with a Strength of Excellent. Well, no one has ever done that. Because no humans base Strength is Excellent, regardless of what one might attain on a Red Feat.

So, my conclusion is that, whether you like the numbers increments or not, virtually every one's strength has been statted wrong ... the strength of your average people in common professions no exception.

Now, I'm not suggesting that everyone drop all Strength stats by 1 CS, or anything else for that matter. I'm just making the observation.

So... in a situation where the two possibilities are:

1) Almost every single profile ever published for this system has the wrong Strength rating, and while they were at it they also by extension got all scores for invulnerability and body armour wrong.

OR

2) You misunderstood what some people who in any case weren't picked for their English skills were trying to say.

You assume that option 1 must be the answer?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/21/2006 09:03AM by Wallace.

Dude, you really don't have to be a English major to know what *optimal* means. And I am sure that all of the writers that used that word knew exactly what it meant. Writers who don't understand the language usually don't get paid to write.

But then maybe you're right and Spidey and Hobgoblin really can lift upwards of 50 tons, Annihilus really can lift upwards of 80 tons, the Kingpin up to 1 ton, and Guardian, the Beetle, Dr.Doom, Dr. Octupus, and the Beast can lift upwards of 10 tons, as opposed to having the upper-end Strength levels they have been listed as having in non-game sources time after time.

Not upwards of, up to. Now, that's basic English.

Beast has in the past lifted well over one ton, when pushing himself. Similarly, Spider-Man has lifted well over ten tons, and Captain America has lifted well over 800 lbs. As a general rule, such instances were depicted as them pushing themselves beyond their normal limits. On the other hand, instances of them lifting within their official strength ranges are usually shown as requiring little effort or exertion on their part.

'Optimal', on the other hand, is a subjective term. What's the optimal time to get married? Is it when you're financially secure and living somewhere with a good education system? Or is it when you're in love? Similarly, does 'under optimal conditions' mean 'when pushing yourself to the absolute limit of your abilities' or does it mean 'without possibly injuring yourself'?

-Wal

Optimal is the one time Paul Anderson lifted 600 lbs in a military press, as opposed to the 400 lbs he consistently lifted. Optimal is, by definition, those rare occasions when a person has what is called a "peak experience", performing well beyond their usual limits. In game terms, it is a Red Feat.

Just like the system is what it is, the word optimal means what it means. It has a very clear and commonly agreed upon definition. And once again, "on average" simply ain't part of that definition.

Very clear definition? Not really. Let's see what Dictionary.com has to say about it.

Main Entry: op·ti·mal
Pronunciation: 'äp-t&-m&l
Function: adjective
: most desirable or satisfactory : OPTIMUM <optimal concentrations of a drug> —op·ti·mal·i·ty /"äp-t&-'mal-&t-E/ noun plural -ties
—op·ti·mal·ly /-m&-lE/ adverb

Desire and satisfaction being entirely subjective comments, that's a lack of clarity right there. The most desirable result in exercise could well be to consistently attain a certain level. The most desirable or satisfactory conditions in which to engage in exercise are not, for example, when you're stuck to the front of a speeding train, trying to stop it through sheer brute force - but that was one of Rogue's more impressive feats of strength in comics.

There's a complete lack of clarity in that definition.

-Wal

Power Surge, Judges,stat enthusiasts,
Unfortunately, it's a good observation P-Surge has made. I've always wondered about this, so in some ways, I agree with him. But with adjustments.
I've tried to stat myself. (am I the only nutcase who's ever tried this? I should start a thread!)
At my toughest/strongest, I was Bench pressing 275 lbs. Free weights, by the way. As for the MUCH more difficult millitary press, I don't think I could EVER get passed 160. 120 was more like it for normal reps. So I, former U.S. Army, former plain clothes security (practically a bouncer, really), current Brown belt in Judo... have Poor strength. I should just learn to live with it. But it's embarassing. Having Typical strength woud be bad enough for a pseudo-tough-guy like me.
However, I just went ahead, and in my campaign, said that strength is based on what one can BENCH PRESS. And "assume" (yes, I know, that makes me an "a*s." I already knew that...) that's what the RPG actually meant. BENCHING under optimal conditions. And P-Surge is right on the money when talking about optimal conditions.
Here: In a gym (well, the gym at the Baxter Building, at least), while well rested, Spidey could BENCH 10 tons. That doesn't seem out of line to me. As for Red Feat benching of 50 tons? I don't know.
Calling Strength how much one can BENCH PRESS just makes my life (and character creation) a whole lot easier.
Of course, there are still some of the same problems Power Surge points out.
Because even though this bumps me, Mark the Normal Human (and most of y'all) to Typical strength, I have to be honest with myself and ask, "Does it really?"
Because while I can easily bench 200 lbs under optimal conditions, there is no way on God's green Earth I could EVER put up 400 pounds. Don't talk to me about Red Feats or a puppy trapped under a Buick. I just cannot do it. So, maybe I'm at Typical (5).
Or maybe a Red Feat should mean you can lift at the VERY BOTTOM of the scale for the next level. Maybe Spidey can lift 34 tons in a desperate situation. I suppose that if my life depended on it, I could bench 300 (or so) pounds (though like I said, I've NEVER done more than 275. I'm kind of a short but stocky guy,) .
Or maybe, and consider this, a Red feat is there because comic book superheroes are larger than life, and can go beyond what we real, boring people can do. That's why they are heroes.
Anyway, after all that blathering of mine, I think I only had two or three actual thoughts:
1) Make it a bench press. Just assume people who sit around writing RPGs aren't powerlifters on their days off. They made an error.
2) A Red Feat (optional, judges call) should allow lifting at the very bottom of the next level.
3) After all this working out, PLEASE let me stat myself as having Typical strength. That's not asking much, is it?
Thanks for listening,
Mark



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/21/2006 12:53PM by Mark.

Hey Mark!

I can appreciate your arguement! I too am one of those pseudo-tough guys who are entirely trapped within the boundaries of Typical Strength. I can regularly pick up 120 lbs. and press it above my head. At a body weight of 150 lbs, I might only be able to squeeze out 2 or 3 reps, but I can lift it at any time of day regardless of whether I'm sick or modeately tired or hung-over. In game terms, its an automatic feat for me. Nevertheless, I honestly can't see myself pressing much more than 140 or 150 lbs. Afterall, a powerlifter I'm not. I certainly ain't one of those 150 lbs freaks who can jerk upwards of 300 lbs above their heads!!

So, as far as the Red Feat consideration goes, I too am forced in all honesty to rank myself at Poor Strength ... which means every one from Invisible Girl to Professor X is stronger than me! :X

What I think is most likely is that the game designer simply looked at the numbers found in various Strength Level entires, and failed to consider the language being used in the MU handbooks. By the time anyone caught on, the stats were too established to make such a sweeping revision as reducing all super strong characters Strength by -1 CS.

Hell, even I haven't done that. I'm just makin an observation.

Why cant you rate yourself at TY(6) strength because you judge yourself at the invisible girls level? Disregard the LITERALNESS of your bench-press numbers and have one your friends draw you- Powersurge on paper right next to the Sue Storm.

Powersurge: Str(ty-6)
invisible girl : Str(ty-6)

How bout that... you now have the same strength as her in a comicbook rpg.
I know if I had your 140 lb total theres no way I'd rate myself at Pr(4)!!!

The handbooks usually say things like "such and such character possesses the normal human strength of a man/woman of his/her age, height and build who engages in no/moderate/regular/or intensive exercise."

Technically, if they where real human beings, even combat oriented female characters like Black Widow would have a Strength of Poor at best (that still allows her to lift 200 lbs max, which is generous) and only Typical if they where female weight lifters. What this would do, of course, would gimp them in the damage department. According to the original stats, Black Widow is as physically strong as Wolverine and Daredevil. This can't be literally true, but was instituted to allow her to inflict similar amounts of slugfest damage. I assume. I think a good solution would be to allow female characters to keep the listed strength levels in regards to damage but give them a -1CS to lifting ability. Don't know if I'll ever do this in my game since it's just an abstract game mechanic. Invisible Woman can't really lift 200 lbs over her head or 400 with a red feat... but then again people can't run as fast as characters in MSH's either.

If one does not know exactly how much a comicbook character can lift including woman similar to Storm or Invisible girl, and they have TY-6 strength then a young woman with a similar build should get the same Strength.

Powersurge if you use a strict lb-press system to write new stats for newer characters they would have a 1 rank disadvantage on there strength.( unless of course some comicbook mentions specifically what they can exactly lift ) And I have never seen a delux ed. marvel handbook comic or rpg supplement mention a lift/press under 650lbs.


Which would mean you would still have to guess using visuals and other details of writing stats of those between 1lb and 500lbs or FB strength and GD strength.

I have been thinking about this and have decided that neither bench press or milatary press is the way to mesure someones str. All lifts would have to be considered I know very few people who can lift 200lbs over there heads. On the same hand I know quite a few people who when you balance out there overall str. would be ty.

Trying to compare are selves to these comic book characters is also completly unrealistic. Even the most gung ho athletes i know spend about 10 - 12 hours per week working out in the comics most heroes are working out or fighting all the time.
also comparing proffesional athletes to heroes is also not very accurate a football player will have very different str. than a tennis player. A wrestler may lift high weights but cant perform an iron cross like a gymnast.A spped skater may have good str. legs and pr. str. arms and so on.

I guess my point is this is another example of someone tryng to use real world physics in comic book worlds. Just isn't gonna work

Well, just because a powerlifter can't do an ironcross, doesn't mean he is somehow less strong, in absolute terms, than a gymnast ... depending.

Now, pound for pound, a gymnast is the strongest athlete in the world. That is, they can lift more weight for every pound of body weight than any other athlete. Nevertheless, in terms of absolute weight lifted, the powerlifter is still stronger and, within the context of Marvel system, has a higher strength score.

I for instance am quite stronger for a 150 lber. However, that doesn't mean my Strength score is just as high as a 200 lber in equally good shape, because the game and the Strength stat deals in absolute strength, ie. who can move more absolute weight. And specifically, who can move more wieght in the military press.

Now, if this was Villians and Vigilantes, which figures "carrying capacity" based upon both strength and body weight, me and the big 200 lbers, might very well have the same Strength stat, but for better or worse this is Marvel's not V and V.

As for the military press being the standard measurement of strength; that is something made clear in the original Handbooks of the Marvel Universe. All of the strength Levels found therein represent military press strength, expressedly stated therein as the abiltiy to lift a weight to the shoulders and then press it overhead. Thus the common "lift/press" preface.

As for most people being unable to military press 200 lbs; well, perhaps that is why the designers charted Poor as being the strength for a normal human?

As for heroes constantly working out and/or fighting; that wouldn't improve their strength level unless they had a regenerative system like Wolverine. Rest is just as important a part of muscle building as exercise. They go together. Without proper rest, diet, et al. you are liable to do yourself far more harm than good.

As for working out 10 -12 hours a week; that is a fairly standard schedule. I used to work out 12 hours a week ... an hour in the morning, an hour in the evening, 6 days on, 1 day off, isolating different muscle groups each day. In contrast, an Olympic level athlete doesn't really have a life outside of training.

Points taken I just feel the system is flawed, but I guess I should bring that up in the revamp forum. It does seem strange though the game has a level rated typical thats not typical at all.

Average human fighting ability is also ranked at Poor. Also, while the charts rank average Endurance at Typical, I don't see any reason to gift your average citizen of the Western world an Endurance any greater than Poor. I mean, we pollute the air we breath more substantially than any smoker or group of smokers ever could, which effects our cardio. -- the lung of a non-smoking city dweller looks hideous compared to its rural counterpart -- and we drive everywhere. EVERYWHERE. If we could fit our cars in our homes we would drive to the bathroom or over to the tv to change the channel!!

To true.

This still doesn't change the fact that any new modeling of "newer"( characters that have no stat write ups yet new or established ) characters will have strength ( and now maybe endurance ) lower than characters with established stats including NPC's in the Judges book. At least anyone under EX(20) strength will have this disadvantage.

According to you Powersurge Aunt May may not earn her FB(2) strength of 50 lbs ( which is ok ) but lowering her strength or anyone else with TY, PR,ect. down or stat them lower then there stat esablished equals is unfair. Aunt May with shift-0 strength?

Is it the the word typical and the npc stats you dont like or is it that typical=200lbs your not keen on?

Perhaps if Jeff Grubb in the judges book described FB as 25lbs, PR as 50lbs, TY as 100lbs and GD as 200lbs there would of been less confusion, or hassel.

If I were to make a revision in my own home campaign, it would be, for the most part, straight across the board and not confined to the lower end of the spectrum. Most people with Normal Human strength would be shifted down a rank, with Excellents becoming Goods, Goods becoming Typicals, and so on. Anyone with a Feeble Strength would likely maintain a Feeble Strength and would fall into either the Fe(1) or the Fe(2) category ... not that the Strength score of someone so weak is likely to be of much consequence in a superhero game.

Most male superheroes would fall into the Typical or Good category, and could probably stay where they are. Most females would probably have to be chopped down from Typical to Poor.

Folks with super strength would also be shifted down one, so as to account for the rpg's "Red Feat" and thus accurately reflect the upper limits of their established strength.

Now, if you feel this is "unfair", thats fine. I'm not sure how such a sweeping revision sits with me. When an official character appears in one of my games -- which is rarely by and large -- I still tend to play them as is. Why? 'Cause I'm used to things as they are I suppose. And it's a rare occurence. Less so the bad guys, but bad guys always need a bit of an edge.

On the otherhand, when punks and thugs make appearances in my games -- which is regularly by and large -- I usually do adjust their stats to what I feel is apropriate ... usually adjusting F,S, and E down a rank on average.

Once again, it's all just an interesting observation. I'm not suggesting a "remedy".