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Captain America's Fighting Styles
Posted by Dr Archeville
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The Marvel Directory lists Cap as having "mastered the martial art of American-style boxing and judo, and has combined these disciplines with his own unique hand-to-hand style of combat."
The Marvel Encyclopedia lists him as knowing all forms of combat, and that when he woke up from the deep-freeze he pretty much started non-stop training with anyone and everyone the gov't could get access to and mastered every combat style (all as "routine training"). The MSH RPG lists Cap as having Martial Arts A-E. Now, given that it's almost impossible to accurately gauge the passage of time in the comics, it's quite hard to tell how long Cap's been training in "every martial art." Was he thawed out 5 years ago? 10? 15? However, given that Shang Chi's trained his whole life, and "only" knows all the Oriental Martial Arts (South American, African, and various European fighting styles are wholly unknown to him), how likely is it that Cap knows "all forms of martial arts"? Why would he even both learning non-U.S. Military martial arts, given who/what he is? Where/when has Cap shown any combat moves that could not be attributed to either American boxing or Judo? Has he ever shown any Muay Thai kickboxing moves? Any Nijitsu-specific moves? How 'bout Triad Assassin Training (which focuses on automatic pistols)? Wu Shu T'sung, the offical martial art of Communist China? Has he ever been shown doing Tai Chi exercises? Kendo swordsmanship? The various animalistic Kung Fu styles (White Crane, Phoenix Eye, Tiger Claw, Dragon Spirit, Dog Boxing, Leopard, Black Tiger, Snake, Monkey, Praying Mantis, Eagle Claw, etc.)? Systema Boyevogo Iskustvo ("Russian System of Martial Arts," which focuses on combat in non-traditional situations such as fighting from a chair or while in a car)? Eskrima, the Filipino stick-based martial art? Savate (French kickboxing)? Brazilian Capoeira ("breakdance fighting")? Post Edited (08-12-04 16:32) --------------------- Be Ex/20 to one another!
So what are you trying to get at Doc? Do you want to lower Cap's Fighting? Take some talents away from him?
I'm really not trying to be confrontational here but does it really matter? There's no way that Cap has shown use of every martial art form there is in the comics. This is just the mystique of Captain America. Nobody has the mental discipline that he has to be ever vigilant and constantly be training his body. Your first line says it all. Combining judo, boxing, and his own unique style of hand to hand combat. That would the use of his shield and Agility as he jumps around, on and off of everything including the opponent to land hits. Spidey could be described as having his own unique style of hand to hand combat. MSH Classic RPG System [rivendell.fortunecity.com]
Not lower his Fighting, no, but maybe take away one or two of the Martial Arts talents (Judo focuses on throws, American-style boxing focuses on strikes, so that covers Martial Arts A, B, and possibly E, but not C or D).
I guess my main point, though was just to see what others thought about Cap's fighting styles. Do boxing & judo adequately cover all his moves? Is there any evidence from the comics indicating that he knows, say, Capoeria or Muay Thai? Is there any reason he should be listed as having them? --------------------- Be Ex/20 to one another!
I can see him with A, B and E. Martial Arts C encorporates wrestling and he is listed with that talent isn't he? So C can go in and D is the study an opponent and ignore body armor. I just have no problem with Cap being given all the martial art talents I guess.
MSH Classic RPG System [rivendell.fortunecity.com]
To answer doc's question: yes Cap has used judo ( plus many other forms of martial arts ) mostly in the issues 150's well up to 300. As a matter of fact most of the older-veteran writers would use by name judo all the time, including Stan Lee etc.( karate was the other popular martial art mentioned by name in the 60's and 70's- even Tony Stark has been shown with this knowledge )
I believe Cap's fighting and martial arts should not be lowered but... Doc brings up an interesting point. His experience in total years is not as great as Shang-chi not that that can tell the whole story as far as stats are concerned. If he started training in 1940 gaining a couple of martial arts talents at a lower fighting stat to 1945 where he freezes then gets unfrozen and starts his training again thats 5 years. Based on an unofficial time chronology system used by some writers ( and fans ) fantastic four no.1-1961 the start of the marvel super hero continuity ( not of the marvel universe entire of course ) divide by 4.- later on a rule of thumb had been the age of Franklin Richards. Basically since the fan four#1 the MU has aged about 11 years ( compleatlly unofficial - yet check out the 16-17 year old peter parker and his age today ) Cap has about 16-17 years of experience and Shang-Chi has 30+years- I still would not want Cap's fighting or talents lowered at all but I would max out Shang-Chi's fighting to the high end of AMAZING.
I know nothing of Shang Chi other than a few comics and his marvel stats so I won't comment on him.
Maybe remove Martial Arts D from Cap, but thats it. to quote Indiana Jones "It's not the years, it's the milage" I believe Cap's practical application of the fundamental skills of multiple martial arts, (not all martial arts) makes him at least equal to Shang Chi. That's not the argument is it sorry... I like Cap having all but, removing maybe Type D would make sense. Post Edited (08-13-04 04:30) "To win without risk is to triumph without glory"
Weapon X and I discussed this actually on another thread pertaining to Superman's roles . . . Captain America has one major thing going for him that Shang Chi doesn't: supersoldier serum. Not only did it boost him to possessing all the maximum human abilities (F:Am, A:In, S:Ex, E:In), but it also endowed him with a predilection to learning combat styles (sorta' like Callisto's mutant power and one of early Wolverine's (before Jim Lee got ahold of him and said he picked his craft up as a street brawler and soldier). My point is that while Cap hasn't studied all forms of martial arts in detail, he has been exposed to them during government training, and because his physical abilities are the human maximum (a hugely important note) he has "mastered" all main forms of martial arts to the effect that he would have a black belt in them. Obviously skill in these disciplines goes beyond black belt, but as Iron Fist noted in IF#7 (or 8) Cap's moves are raw, but his speed, agility, and strength are incredible (not In). Hence they're clearly superior to his - the former two being keys to superior martial arts skills. Now Iron Fist has F:In, A:Rm, S:Gd, E:Rm (in MSH). Moreover, he receives a +2CS whenever he applies martial arts in combat or agility feats. Making him, like Shang Chi, a superior fighter to Cap (skillwise). However, he has normal human limitations. Captain America didn't receive any bonuses except when using his shield wherein it was +2CS. Shang Chi received a +1CS when using martial arts during Fighting and Agility FEATS. Shang also has normal human limitations and, like IF, has devoted his life championing his form of discipline and learning/mastering new ones. As for Cap losing some of the disciplines, again
Palladium made a book (Ninjas and Superspy's) that listed at least 50 different types of martial arts, I don't believe Cap knows every single martial arts ever conceived on the planet, that might be over doing it a bit Dr.
He has mastered several forms at the most (karate,judo,kick boxing american boxing, maybe one or two types of Kung fu) are created his own hybrid fighting style (per Marvel directory) To take Marvel encyclopedia literally in their explanation is silly. I do believe Cap has enough skills to warrent martial arts A-E "To win without risk is to triumph without glory"
That's exactly my point -- to say he's mastered all forms of martial arts is ludicrous (especially given the relatively small amount of time he's been training). But that's what most people seem to think is the case, since most see him as some sort of "Uber Warrior God." My stance is -- Cap's not supposed to be the "Best Human Fighter EVAR," he'ss upposed to be a symbol of America/American Fighting Spirit & Super-Patriot. As such, why would his superiors bother training him in the national fighitng style of Wakanda? Why would he bother learning the official martial art of Communist China? --------------------- Be Ex/20 to one another!
As anyone with an in-depth background in martial arts can attest, a large number of the martial arts have similar moves, postures, and philosphies--so once you master one, it becomes easier to learn others. On a basic level, the first few weeks (or even months) of a serious martial art regimen would involve lots of running, pushups, crunches, etc, that serve two purposes--first, you have to develop both strength and stamina required for fighting, and second, to develop the discipline required for the philosophical side of the art.
Not to bring up other RPGs, but White Wolf's Mage uses a proto-martial art called Do, and while it encompasses all martial arts styles, it only has four basic moves (punch, kick, throw, jump kick). It's a great way to define those characters who like Bats, Cap, Shang Chi, et al, have 'mastered all known forms of martial arts' (which incidentally, would be all but totally impossible--but hey!--it's comics, eh?) I guess my point, such as it is, is that while Cap may never have studied under an Escrimador or a savate master, I'd put my money on Cap over any of those masters. Not just because he has raw potential (i.e. the Amazing rank Fighting), but because a guy with that much discipline. experience and exposure to elements of so many different combat styles would be all that much more dangerous. This says nothing about DRIVE, which I think is a big part of Captain America's mystique. Another quick point is that the MSH Martial Arts (i.e. A-E) are also proto-martial arts. They are listed to represent not specific martial forms, but rather use those forms (karate, boxing, judo, etc.) as examples. Word. sean...
'Course not. Cap was only exposed to the usual suspects: Karate, Aikido, Kung Fu, Tae Kwon Do, wrestling, boxing, gymnastics, etc. - the basics.
Based upon your rhetorical question, you obviously know that there are tons more - even within the ones I referred to (Karate and Kung Fu have so many interpretations; it's almost ridiculous). However, his predilection to learning moves, his (limited) experience with U.S. masters in the above fields, and (most importantly) his superior physical abilities to normal human opponents (even the likes of Shang Chi, IF, Daredevil, the Punisher - people w/ In or Am Fighting) make him have Am Fighting and the knowledge in MA's A-E. Do you need to know 100 disciplines if you have the physical abilities equal to (or greater than): acrobatics as a gold medal gymnast, strength greater than the Kingpin's 686 (Cap's got 800), eye-hand coordination of a MLB pitcher, a reaction time 4X greater than an olympic athlete, and the endurance of a champion marathon runner (according to the original Marvel Universe and Cap #250 mighta' been #255)? I'd say no, but that's me. Batroc the Leaper is a master of Savate, and he fought Cap numerous times. Cap may not have received that training, but he's beaten Batroc each time, making "ze leeper" 0-for-always. Whereas Mr. Hyde beat his @#$%& like a gong in #251, but it took Batroc (punching bag mainly) and Cap to beat him in #252. Those were actually great issues.
Umm i dont' know everything but maybe this could be very simple.
When they say he has mastered all forms...maybe they are talking about MSH forms...meaning he has Mastered at least one of every type. Martial Arts A-E. Just a suggestion. [img220.echo.cx]
Why would anybody make a game based on a comic....its fun...thats what roleplaying games were made for...
They were made so that players such as you and me and everyone else on this board....could sit around and oogle the stats given to the characters that are based in the comics. If we dont' like something or believe that it is wrong we change it...thus is the power of the GM. We are the Beyonders of the Marvel realm and as far as to my knowledge it will always be that way. That last sentence was not to sound cliche about the power of the GM but it is the truth. What we should really ask ourselves is whether each of us think Caps should have all Martial Arts talents or Just mastered a few of each type? Then you change it....otherwise what is the point of even debating it...besides the obvious amusement some of us get from watching you debate it.... Right on!!!! [img220.echo.cx]
You missed my point entirely, Clergy. You suggested that the comic reference of saying Cap's mastered all forms of martial arts might refer to how, in the MSH RPG, he's listed as having Martial Arts A-E. But why would Marvel comics put anything in their comic that originated in the game? Marvel Comics doesn't care what's in the game, as long as it makes them $$$.
Hunh? What are you babbling about? --------------------- Be Ex/20 to one another!
Ok...my point was unclearly stated i apologize...what i am saying is that in the Comics they might have stated that he was a master of all martial arts. So when they did the game they included this as "all martial arts" meaning Martial Arts A-E. In this case it is the game being based upon what was said in the comics.
I don't know for sure...i have never read Captain America comics...or Avengers Comics...I am more of an X-Men and Hulk fan. The second part of my post was psycho babble meant to confuse you...obviously it worked. Just kidding.. [img220.echo.cx]
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