Planet Buster

I still say C5000 Gift used to give many people C5000 Leaping could knock a planet out of orbit....



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Be Ex/20 to one another!

Meh, UK...

Some powers are not about "material hardness"', nor they even care about such. There are plenty of examples of powers that could destroy earth at "Feblee" rank((not just teleport it away)).... given long amount of time. And if you combine some powers,.. make some power stunts... there is almost limitless amount of ways you could "get rid of earth"

And not all energy blasts are equal... neither are all explosions.

And a simple fact of vastness of various pheonomena... and unimaginable(almost) differences amke it virutally imposible to categorize it so simply.

Ex. In one of the tables for cl5000 and above you tried to categorize power levels to destoy planet,.. star,.. galaxy... the mere differences not just between above categories but within them are on orders of multiple magnitudes.... and then there are a number of things you could put in between of these..

you mentioned material strenght in one of the previous posts... what is material strength of black hole? If Class30k is enough to destroy galaxy... does it destroy each black hole within it? When possibly each black hole has infinite material strength? Or would such blast simply "blow" the black hole away...?

Also,... outside of using things that are no longer explotions/radiation blaststs... how could you blow up universe? Vaporize it? Entire universeis contantly blowng up..... would matter disapear? melt away... or would it just reform into new galaxies and star systems?

Also, I am not sure you realize... but amount of TNT you noted that is needed to "shatter a planet" is already 10 000 000 times more than our star's total energy output per (SI)unit of time. I might be wrong here by a single "0" here... but its nothing at a scale we are talking about.

Also to note... made some research/inquires/did some math of my own... physics forums and such... to make planet explode/rip it appart you would need, only, about 6e16 (not 1e24, huge difference) tons TNT, and giant planet like jupiter would not need much more....

Regardless... I am curious... back to that black hole question... what would be material strenght of a black hole, according to you, considering its a singular event,.... consider this... on a neutron star you would weight about 290,109,600,000 times more than on earth.... and its denisty is 100 million tonnes per cubic centimeter... 9.1 x 10e16 kg/m3, and that is only for a single neutron star which obviously is much bigger than 1cm cube... anyhow... which is all beside the point,f a single black star simply sucking in ALL the "blast" energy inside.... and there are many of these in every galaxy as well.


Althought I find playing with these numbers fascinating,... the scale in itself causes it not to be a very... err... quntifiable into nice categories... lets just say from class to class(higher up)... you were just adding e24 on top of previous one... its not really that quntifiable... and is not more arbitrary than using previous ranks... like
CL1000 - earth
CL3000 - sun
CL5000 - galaxy (which by themselves differ so greatly, its mind boogling. Not to mentioned these are grouped into local groups, which are part of bigger "galaxy systems)
Beyond- Universe
And leaving multiverse for Tribunal...



but numbers had always a special charm for me, I do not mind you going ahead with these classes... just showing you that it is not simple and straight forward task that you think it is.

As something to add to Angel DM's ideas, then there is the quatification of the heroes themselves.

If you can destroy a planet with a class 1000 attack, then the way it is set with Hulkie being able to make the jump into the Class tables (which is utterly ludicrous) HE could then destroy the planet with a single mighty punch and a smiple yellow feat.

The quantification ability flies right out the window. Saying that Mephisto is as hard to destroya as a sun would be is beyond ludicrous, yet Mephisto has a higher "health" than the sun does in this example. This is the definable reason for the Beyond rank. It was made to handle all of those things that are NOT useful to try to quantify because you trip yourself up in any quantification of them.

Destroy a galaxy? You miust have Beyond and a rationale that works. Galaxies are not destroyable as we understand it. When it happens in Marvel it is definately a Beyond event.

The Milky Way itself, a largish but not massive galaxy, would take tens of millions of Class 3000 attacks if "a sun" also hard to define in that they differ so vastly to do so, or a single one that never stops, which would also be a good definition for beyond. Plus with distances factored in, unless the wave front of the enrgy or whatever was moving at more than the speed of light, it would take tens of thousands of years, minimum, to achieve.

Again, people usually just do not comprehend the numbers they use. This is another reason for Beyond being undefinable and for the Class Ranks to be kept, as the designers said to do, completely seperate from the Shift ranks and the normal table. The Class ranks are no longer done any justice by quantifying them unless you had thousands of sub ranks, each with a very specific definition of what they can accomplish.

There is a reason that there is NO official table that defines the lifting capability of any Class rank. The amount of actual damage attainable is tied most directly in a visualizable manner to the strength table. Thus when you go beyond Shift, the designers seem to be saying, you can no longer properly quantify damage capability EXCEPT in an abstract form.


G



If electricity comes from electrons; does that mean that morality comes from morons? G. Carlin

I meantioned something along those lines a bit back on the whole realism thing, but, Angel... I salute you! That was the best post in this vein that I've seen in like, forever! Was sniggering badly near the end. Care to continue it?

The weirdest I've ever seen in a game was, "I lift the plane to safety!"

"You place your hands under it and lift... the structure is unable to support the weight of the plane, your hands sink into the metal, and wind up tearing holes in the side. The plane begins to sink."

and:

"I roll to evade... I dodged the lightning blast!"

"You can't... it... you... it would strike towards you. It's electricity! Besides, it moves far too fast!"

"Rules give me a roll to evade, I scored a Red Feat, therefore I manage it!"

"... fine (thinks how to continue his campaign, which involved team mates bringing unconscious hero to hospital)... you somehow tap into enough adrenaline to move your body beyond human limits, hurling yourself out of the way in time!"

"Yay!"

"Your joints buckle under the strain, bones break, and your hair caught fire from friction. Your team mates have to bring your now critical body to hospital..."

Meh, UK...

Hi AngelDM mate!

Some powers are not about "material hardness"', nor they even care about such. There are plenty of examples of powers that could destroy earth at "Feblee" rank ((not just teleport it away)).... given long amount of time.

Yes but I am discussing powers that can do it in a single application.

And if you combine some powers,.. make some power stunts... there is almost limitless amount of ways you could "get rid of earth"

True, but that doesn't affect our rating of natural cosmic events and by extension unnatural effects which can mimic them.

And not all energy blasts are equal... neither are all explosions.

Indeed.

And a simple fact of vastness of various pheonomena... and unimaginable(almost) differences amke it virutally imposible to categorize it so simply.

We can easily deduce how much energy needed to destroy a city, continent, planet, star, galaxy and universe.

Ex. In one of the tables for cl5000 and above you tried to categorize power levels to destoy planet,.. star,.. galaxy... the mere differences not just between above categories but within them are on orders of multiple magnitudes.... and then there are a number of things you could put in between of these..

Not really. My table was based on a simple logical progression, which balanced with as much of the current official rules as possible.

ie. We know Class 1000 is in the Megaton+ range and we know that Class 5000 can shatter a planet. Therefore Class 3000 must be a global extinction event.

It was a simple matter to work out the energy required for those events.

Then the progression became clear.

Everytime you ascend a rank you multiply the effect x10 more than the previous time.

So
S-X = UN x10
S-Y = S-X x100
S-Z = S-Y x1000
CL 1000 = S-Z x10,000
CL 3000 = CL 1000 x100,000
CL 5000 = CL 3000 x1 million
etc.

So it all just fell perfectly that
CL 3000 = Global Extinction Event
CL 5000 = Planet Shattering

continuing that progression we see:

Next rank up = Supernova
Next rank up = Galaxy destroying power
Next rank up = Universe destroying power
Next rank up = Multiverse destroying power (Beyond)

you mentioned material strenght in one of the previous posts... what is material strength of black hole?

Well it shouldn't be too hard to work out. A cubic metre of black hole weighs 10 quodrillion tons (1E16).

If Class30k is enough to destroy galaxy... does it destroy each black hole within it?

Yes because the total mass of a galaxy includes any black holes within it.

When possibly each black hole has infinite material strength?

It doesn't have infinite material strength.

At best it could be Class 3000.

Or would such blast simply "blow" the black hole away...?

Class 30,000 would vapourise black holes.

Also,... outside of using things that are no longer explotions/radiation blaststs... how could you blow up universe? Vaporize it? Entire universeis contantly blowng up..... would matter disapear? melt away... or would it just reform into new galaxies and star systems?

Well obviously you would need some sort of plot device (eg. The Ultimate Nullifier can already destroy a Universe)

Also, I am not sure you realize... but amount of TNT you noted that is needed to "shatter a planet" is already 10 000 000 times more than our star's total energy output per (SI) unit of time. I might be wrong here by a single "0" here... but its nothing at a scale we are talking about.

I have already determined the energy needed to destroy a star. Equivalent 1 million trillion trillion (1E30) tons of TNT.

Also to note... made some research/inquires/did some math of my own... physics forums and such... to make planet explode/rip it appart you would need, only, about 6e16 (not 1e24, huge difference) tons TNT, and giant planet like jupiter would not need much more....

1E13 tons is roughly a global extinction event
1E16 would probably crack a planet but the peices would still be held by gravity.
1E21 is needed to blast an Earth sized planet apart like the Death Star

Regardless... I am curious... back to that black hole question... what would be material strenght of a black hole, according to you, considering its a singular event,.... consider this... on a neutron star you would weight about 290,109,600,000 times more than on earth.... and its denisty is 100 million tonnes per cubic centimeter... 9.1 x 10e16 kg/m3, and that is only for a single neutron star which obviously is much bigger than 1cm cube... anyhow... which is all beside the point,f a single black star simply sucking in ALL the "blast" energy inside.... and there are many of these in every galaxy as well.

Our galaxy weighs in the region of 1E38 tons.

Althought I find playing with these numbers fascinating,... the scale in itself causes it not to be a very... err... quntifiable into nice categories...

I disagree, the progression is quantifiable.

lets just say from class to class(higher up)... you were just adding e24 on top of previous one... its not really that quntifiable... and is not more arbitrary than using previous ranks... like
CL1000 - earth
CL3000 - sun
CL5000 - galaxy (which by themselves differ so greatly, its mind boogling. Not to mentioned these are grouped into local groups, which are part of bigger "galaxy systems)
Beyond- Universe
And leaving multiverse for Tribunal...

Your above progression doesn't work.

but numbers had always a special charm for me, I do not mind you going ahead with these classes... just showing you that it is not simple and straight forward task that you think it is.

It is to me. ;-)



You address OMNIPOTENCE, tread carefully.

Hi Gerrod mate!

As something to add to Angel DM's ideas, then there is the quatification of the heroes themselves.

If you can destroy a planet with a class 1000 attack, then the way it is set with Hulkie being able to make the jump into the Class tables (which is utterly ludicrous) HE could then destroy the planet with a single mighty punch and a smiple yellow feat.

Exactly, AngelDMs progression doesn't work, whereas mine does.

The quantification ability flies right out the window. Saying that Mephisto is as hard to destroya as a sun would be is beyond ludicrous, yet Mephisto has a higher "health" than the sun does in this example.

Indeed.

This is the definable reason for the Beyond rank. It was made to handle all of those things that are NOT useful to try to quantify because you trip yourself up in any quantification of them.

Not with my progression.

Destroy a galaxy? You miust have Beyond and a rationale that works. Galaxies are not destroyable as we understand it. When it happens in Marvel it is definately a Beyond event.

Wrong. What about the Kree Nega-Bomb!?

Destroying a galaxy is possible, its just a matter of power.

The Milky Way itself, a largish but not massive galaxy, would take tens of millions of Class 3000 attacks

Destroying a galaxy with mere Class 3000 attacks would be like trying to kill the Hulk with bullets.

if "a sun" also hard to define in that they differ so vastly to do so,

Not really. They all fit within the orders of magnitude we are dealing with at these levels.

or a single one that never stops, which would also be a good definition for beyond.

I disagree.

Plus with distances factored in, unless the wave front of the enrgy or whatever was moving at more than the speed of light, it would take tens of thousands of years, minimum, to achieve.

Exactly, but since anything with that level of power will almost certainly have superluminal capacity that point is irrelevant.

Again, people usually just do not comprehend the numbers they use.

I do.

This is another reason for Beyond being undefinable and for the Class Ranks to be kept, as the designers said to do, completely seperate from the Shift ranks and the normal table.

Yes, no and no.

The Class ranks are no longer done any justice by quantifying them unless you had thousands of sub ranks, each with a very specific definition of what they can accomplish.

No! That destroys the whole mechanic and why Cosmic characters are seen to interact with non cosmic characters. Thats the beauty of the MSH RPG.

There is a reason that there is NO official table that defines the lifting capability of any Class rank.

Indeed, the designers didn't put enough effort into that side of things.

The amount of actual damage attainable is tied most directly in a visualizable manner to the strength table. Thus when you go beyond Shift, the designers seem to be saying, you can no longer properly quantify damage capability EXCEPT in an abstract form.

I can though!



You address OMNIPOTENCE, tread carefully.

UK, you're operating on orders of magnitude you say. If that is so then your system is no more usable than the existing one in the very instance you cite.

There is not one order of magnitude between a super nova and the destruction of a galaxy. There dozens of orders of magnitude difference, at the very minimal least.

A single super nova is a large fart on a galactic scale.

One may take decades simply to render unviable the planets and cometary halo in the single solar system of it's origin. It might not even destroy large rocky bodies that are far enough away from the star that explodes and one might not even trigger a like event in a distant companion star in locked orbit.

THAT is why I was saying that the scale won't work except in the abstract. Your hypothesis is just plain and simple, incorrect. There is too much room to cover between just those two events to even begin to discuss a proper scale of magnitude for the destruction of a universe.

You keep saying that your scale works. Sorry, scientificly it most certainly does NOT work because your main premises are flawed.

This isn't a scientific game, but since you brought in the term orders of magnitude to explain things I thought I'd have to step in and correct it's use.

An order of magnitude is any number rounded to the nearest power of ten, that's all.

Ten super novas happening at the same time are not going to blow a galaxy apart. Period. Neither are ten thousand of the damned things. Period. And that last example, ten thousand of them, is FOUR orders of magnitude greater than your proposed scale.

Also that example of ten thousand super novas occuring at the same instant is still vanishingly small on the scale of THIS galaxy.

Sorry man, but that's the realities of it.

The system is not wrong and you are not right.

You may have a damned handy house rule their that would be just crackers for a fight between Eternity and Death, say, but the Marvel system seems every bit as exacting for what is being protrayed without rewriting every character in Marvel who can get into the shift range and beyond.


G



If electricity comes from electrons; does that mean that morality comes from morons? G. Carlin

"An order of magnitude is any number rounded to the nearest power of ten, that's all."

Gasp, really? And here I was thinking that that was an "order of magnitude of ten"!

Poor ignorant me! If only I was as scientific and knowledgable about physics as you!

...

Okay, fine that was out of line. But I was just irritated cause you sound really pompous and knowledgable when addressing UK, as opposed to saying that you BELIEVE an order of magnitude to be 10 times, etc etc.

Hi Gerrod mate!

Quote

UK, you're operating on orders of magnitude you say.

Well the fact that you haven't quoted me means you are probably using what I said out of context.

(IIRC) I was replying to your point about how some stars are vastly bigger than others, so how could we lump them all into one bracket.

To which I replied that the orders of magnitude we are operating under (in my addendum) took that into consideration.

Quote

If that is so then your system is no more usable than the existing one in the very instance you cite.

Wrong.

Quote

There is not one order of magnitude between a super nova and the destruction of a galaxy. There dozens of orders of magnitude difference, at the very minimal least.

I already outlined the orders of magnitude (Extrapolated from the official rules definition of Class 1000 and Class 5000)!

The formula is as follows:

S-X = UN x10
S-Y = S-X x100
S-Z = S-Y x1000
CL 1000 = S-Z x10,000
etc.

Quote

A single super nova is a large fart on a galactic scale.

Indeed. Its about 100 millionth the power necessary to destroy a galaxy.

Quote

One may take decades simply to render unviable the planets and cometary halo in the single solar system of it's origin. It might not even destroy large rocky bodies that are far enough away from the star that explodes and one might not even trigger a like event in a distant companion star in locked orbit.

The parallel between Class 10,000 and a supernova is simply a measure of the scale and energy at hand. Not merely to represent an actual supernova.

eg. You could have Class 10,000 Bio Vampirism absorb life forces from a 25 Light Year radius etc.

Quote

THAT is why I was saying that the scale won't work except in the abstract.

It does work. You are conveniently forgetting alternate technologies and abilities beyond the merely 'explosive' and operating within the constraints of the subluminal.

Quote

Your hypothesis is just plain and simple, incorrect.

If it is you have yet to prove so!

Quote

There is too much room to cover between just those two events to even begin to discuss a proper scale of magnitude for the destruction of a universe.

I have already shown you the scale of magnitude. Every increase in rank above Unearthly increases by an extra factor of ten beyond the previous factor!

Quote

You keep saying that your scale works. Sorry, scientificly it most certainly does NOT work because your main premises are flawed.

I fail to see how the premise of balancing everything to fit with the comic book evidence while still remaining true to the official representations of Class 1000 and Class 5000 is flawed!?

Quote

This isn't a scientific game, but since you brought in the term orders of magnitude to explain things I thought I'd have to step in and correct it's use.

We are talking orders (plural) of magnitude.

Quote

An order of magnitude is any number rounded to the nearest power of ten, that's all.

So if I say orderS of magnitude then I am obviously talking about more than simply times ten!

Quote

Ten super novas happening at the same time are not going to blow a galaxy apart. Period. Neither are ten thousand of the damned things. Period. And that last example, ten thousand of them, is FOUR orders of magnitude greater than your proposed scale.

The difference between Class 10,000 and Class 30,000 is 100 million. Not ten. Not ten thousand.

Quote

Also that example of ten thousand super novas occuring at the same instant is still vanishingly small on the scale of THIS galaxy.

Yes I know, but none of that invalidates my addendums.

Quote

Sorry man, but that's the realities of it.

Don't be sorry. You have simply iterated your incomprehension of my system - the very thing you are supposedly trying to refute.

Quote

The system is not wrong and you are not right.

On the contrary, the official system is wrong in its outline of strength above Unearthly (as proved by the comic book evidence). Secondly my addendums both fix this and go on to define the Class ranks whilst still retaining as much of the official outline (Class 1000 and Class 5000 definitions) as possible. They then further expand the Class ranks to take account of truly cosmic events/characters.

Quote

You may have a damned handy house rule their that would be just crackers for a fight between Eternity and Death, say, but the Marvel system seems every bit as exacting for what is being protrayed without rewriting every character in Marvel who can get into the shift range and beyond.

But the fact of the matter is that you don't have to rewrite any character in the shift range. Only the definitions of what shift strength means is changed - to better parallel the comics. At best only a dozen of the most powerful cosmic characters would likely have any abilities changed by the addendums I advocate.



You address OMNIPOTENCE, tread carefully.

Thank you for not highilightiing most of things all the time anymore.... :-)

Btw. You still gotta tell me what is material strength of black hole.... considering it is a singular point in space surrounded by "black" area that nothing can leave.

> On the contrary, the official system is wrong in its outline of
> strength above Unearthly (as proved by the comic book
> evidence). Secondly my addendums both fix this and go on to
> define the Class ranks whilst still retaining as much of the
> official outline (Class 1000 and Class 5000 definitions) as
> possible. They then further expand the Class ranks to take
> account of truly cosmic events/characters.
>


Based on comic book evidence, ranks below Un don't seem to fit as well. Un100 seems to be a LOT more than 100 tons. Darkhawk HAS lifted a boulder over 10 tons.

Heck, on the benchmark list, they put granite and High grade steel as monstrous. Er, so, then Everyone between Spider-man to slightly weaker than She-hulk would be unable to bend steel or smash granite? Does that make sense?

...

Now for something the other way around. Is there any class below feelbe? Should there be? Like for popularity, and some hero who's managed to screw up something and caused half of Mexico to be irradiated. Negative Monstrous? On the benchmark page, Reason seems to equal Education, rather than actual reasoning ability, but... anyhow, what of a wolf child, without even language or basic stuff? Lower than the uneducated couch potato, so... Pathetic?

...

Yet another aside. DO WE USE ROLLS FOR REASON TESTS??? I mean, Shadow Cat's listed there as Masters and above Spider-man (WHY??? Peter Parker is top scientist level!!!). But anyhow, so, Shadow-Cat and Tony Stark are working on an invention (I don't know why). Whenever they encounter some technical problems, 3 times out of 10, Shadow Cat can figure out the answer, while Tony scratches his head in puzzlement?

Hi AngelDM mate!

Quote

Thank you for not highilightiing most of things all the time anymore....

Your welcome.

Quote

Btw. You still gotta tell me what is material strength of black hole.... considering it is a singular point in space surrounded by "black" area that nothing can leave.

I did tell you - or at least give you my best guess. Class 3000.



You address OMNIPOTENCE, tread carefully.

I'd give it Sh-Z, but CL500,000 True Invulnerability or something. For black holes, things either affect them, or they don't. Most things don't. You could launch Planet Buster attacks on it and it wouldn't do a thing. A 500 Gigaton Nuke wouldn't have any affect. On the other hand, maybe some mystic stuff or Marvel techno giga whatsits nonsense could disrupt it or something. Perhaps some Particle-Antiparticle accelerator or something... I'm sorry, I'm just still bitter about being reminded by someone on the forum of Iron Man's "transistor powered" armor... he's one of my fav heroes, but watching reruns of his old series... ah, I feel shame, shame!

A black hgole shouldn't really have a material strength rank -- there's nothing there. Literally. When the star becomes so dense that it caves in on itself, and universal gravity crushes it into a singularity, there's nothing there. Just gravity, pushing down on the former star, and coincidentally pushing anything that gets near it into the same infinitely small space.



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Be Ex/20 to one another!

... are you sure? I was under the impression that gravity is a derivative of mass and distance from center of mass, and a black hole is just such concentrated mass that , well, most of what you said. Anyhow, that singularity is an object of ridiculously high mass, isn't it? Or do you follow the theory that it's a hole in the fabric of space time or something? And, are you sure it's an infinitely small space? I'm not sure about that part, I don't even see how they would be able to measure that for certain, seeing as how light and stuff is just absorbed and bends near it. Couldn't it be the size of a football or something?

There are theorized, theorized mind you, marble sized (and even MUCH smaller) black holes.

A Dr. Hawkins has this idea, and while the press loves it, it is still only a speculative theory (as opposed to a quantifiable theory) at this point in time, that these micro minituarized black holes could could be as tiny as a dust speck and could, in such a form exist trapped in a densely structured astral body (like a particularly dense cometary mass for instance) and survive for billions of years in such a body "feeding" on it and shielded by it.

This could, if the theories about it, the ability to locate and aquire one and the possible means of harnessing one's power pan out, provide a means of nearly limitless tappable energy by increasing the little buggers consumption and siphoning off some of the enrgy that is produced by it's gravitational field.

In point of fact even black holes themselves are not PROVEN to exist. They are the theoretical explanaton of the phenominon that has been observed that objects exist that have so much mass that matter can not be stable in that state. The term black hole is a common parliance term used to express that idea in a single formulation, not a proven reality as such.


G



If electricity comes from electrons; does that mean that morality comes from morons? G. Carlin

Hi Jason mate!

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I'd give it Sh-Z, but CL500,000 True Invulnerability or something.

For black holes, things either affect them, or they don't. Most things don't.

You could just lump it in the Class 10,000 category for stars.

Quote

You could launch Planet Buster attacks on it and it wouldn't do a thing.

True, though I wonder what Star Buster attacks would do?

Quote

A 500 Gigaton Nuke wouldn't have any affect.

That wouldn't even wipe out all life on Earth.

Quote

On the other hand, maybe some mystic stuff or Marvel techno giga whatsits nonsense could disrupt it or something. Perhaps some Particle-Antiparticle accelerator or something...

Exactly...all you need to do is...erm...reverse the polarity. :)

Quote

I'm sorry, I'm just still bitter about being reminded by someone on the forum of Iron Man's "transistor powered" armor... he's one of my fav heroes, but watching reruns of his old series... ah, I feel shame, shame!

:)



You address OMNIPOTENCE, tread carefully.

Quote

Anyhow, that singularity is an object of ridiculously high mass, isn't it? Or do you follow the theory that it's a hole in the fabric of space time or something? And, are you sure it's an infinitely small space?

All of the above, in a way. When a star becomes so ultra-dense it cannot maintain its cohesion, it begins collapsing in on itself, until it literally shrinks down to an infinitely small point (a singularity). At the singularity, gravimetric forces are so concentrated that it's theorized that a 'hole' in spacetime might form, though where the hole might lead is anyone's guess.

This is all, by the way, taken from my memories of college astronomy, a class I took approx. 4 years ago, so I make no promises that what I say is 100% factual. ;-)



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Be Ex/20 to one another!

Ahh... now this discussion gets really inetersting.... :-)

From what I've been reading, one of the most respected real theories (worm holes are almost solely in the realm of science fiction, not science theory) holds that they don't GO anywhere. However, such a hole in space/time, while it might not go anywhere, might go some other when, depending on whether or not temporalistic theories are correct on the nature of benign (as opposed to perceived) time.

The problem, if pre-dating is the object, is that if a stream of coherent energy could somehow survive the gravatational forces intact, it would still emerge inside the star that collapsed to form the singularity in the first place, thus being exposed to whatever radiations the star was emitting. Coherent energy is discussed because no known matter, not even buckyballs, would be dense enough to have any chance of surviving the gravitational forces without being converted into energy by said forces, so, no space ships flying through black holes to other whens, or wheres, if space can be folded or some such. For that matter, even coherent energies are thought to be warped out of "shape" by the tidal forces involved.

G



If electricity comes from electrons; does that mean that morality comes from morons? G. Carlin